55 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

I thought that was AMS' job, to stop missiles?

It is. ECM is not supposed to have any effect on missiles... although in some of the other mechwarrior games it reduced sensor range by 20% and increased missile lock-on time by 1-2 seconds, but that's the MOST it ever did.

[Tie Ma]

Khobai, on 30 January 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

It is. ECM is not supposed to have any effect on missiles... although in some of the other mechwarrior games it reduced sensor range by 20% and increased missile lock-on time by 1-2 seconds, but that's the MOST it ever did.

now that seems about right

[Fake Inception]

Azantia, on 28 November 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Hmmm....

http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/
^ What PGI thinks ECM is......

Sounds a lot like a null signature system to me...

Null Signature System :
First appearing on the SLDF's EXT-4D Exterminator and the later Spector, while the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield masked their visual presence, the Null Signature System cloaked their heat output and electronic emissions. While the system is engaged, the 'Mech is more difficult to track at anything other than short range, with the Beagle Active Probe and its unbranded Clan equivalent unable to locate a hidden unit with its null signature system engaged. Only the modern and experimental Bloodhound Active Probe can penetrate the null signature masking.
Like many pieces of advanced technology, the Null Signature System and the 'Mechs that carried it became LosTech during the malestrom of the early Succession Wars. Outside of the Word of Blake, all modern examples of the Null Signature System in the Inner Sphere are either experimental prototypes such as that carried by the Werewolf or exceedingly rare surviving examples from the original Star League, with the Capellan Confederation the Successor State closest to recreating the system. While not yet able to produce a bolt for bolt, circuit for circuit replication, with typical Capellan ingenuity House Liao has developed a stop-gap solution suitable for mass-production, the so-called Stealth Armor. Integrating the heat baffles and required components directly into specially designed armor plating, when linked with a Guardian ECM Suite Stealth Armor replicates its benefits (and disadvantages).
While the Clans retained the peak of the Terran Hegemony's military technology, the tenets of Clan honor find such stealth systems dishonorable and ceased research and production of the Null Signature System.

The null signature system features heat baffles that mask the 'Mech's heat sinks and reduce its infrared signature. However, the baffles restrict the normal venting of heat, meaning the 'Mech generates an additional 10 points of heat while the system is active. The null signature system also incorporates a phased-array sensor system and a sheathed directional communication beacon. Therefore, a 'Mech with this system may not mount any special Targeting and Tracking Systems (including Targeting Computers, C3 equipment, and C3i equipment) or a Satellite Uplink system.
The null signature system does not weigh a significant amount, but does take up one critical slot in each of the BattleMech'***** locations except for the head, for a total of seven critical slots. A critical hit to any of these slots will disable the entire system.

Guardian ECM Suite

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2]
The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.^[4]


maybe? I dont know.....just a thought

edit : I love you sarna.net and I understand that not ALL of what they propose is like the null signature system...just most of it.

@PGI : What is your view on how Null Signature System should work when it comes along?

mwhighlander, on 30 January 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

This is what many of us have been arguing against PGI's implementation against ECM since day F****** One. Its not rocket surgery, PGI claims to stick by TT (somewhat) then say "f*** it, lets just make normal ECM do everything under the sun at no cost whatsoever."

Its not exactly a mystery why PGI f****** up on this one, but refuse to admit this system they have in place makes no sense. MEANWHILE other equipment like BAP and NARC is so utterly useless its a ******* joke.

Spot on post OP.

Although be prepared for the insults and flames from the rabid fanboys;

Fanboys see it as blasphemy to criticize or question this game, valid or not.

Mwhighlander couldn't of said it better, they ****** up, pure and simple, but it was - dev's pet project, so they are reluctant to change it. Someone _Really_ doesn't like egg on their face.

[WarOrk]

ECM = ELECTRONIC Counter Measures. Makes perfect sense it would confuse missile lock systems which are typically radar (EM wavelengths) or similar guidance systems. It should also Reduce the effectiveness of NARC beacons (Radio/electronic IFF/squealer, but not 100% override them.

TAG - Target Acquisition Gear aka LASER DESIGNATOR.

Now I'm no physicist, but when is the last time a radio wave blocked a laser beam??????

I agree that if within 180m radius of your mech, ECM would possibly mess with your mech enough to disrupt your in-suite (cockpit) electronics and therefore disrupt your TAG receiver's circuitry, but OUTSIDE of 180m, your cockpit wouldn't be affected and the light beam would reflect normally off the ECM mech and should be fully targetable so long as actively TAG-ed.

I realize it is a game, but time to put some simple logic into play with the whole entire spectrum of Electronic Warfare.

• ECM should counter electronic & radio/radar based systems. (Missile lock, target acquisition/lock.)
  
• BAP should "burn through" ECM, but at reduced efficiency (slower to lock, quicker to drop lock, but should still overpower ECM at certain ranges.)
  
• TAG should COMPLETELY IGNORE ECM, as they operate under completely different spectrums of energy states, except when ECM mechs close to within 180m of you and then their ECM begins to mess with your cockpit electronics.
  
• NARC - for the duration of a NARC missile's life, it should override ECM, as the NARC beacon is burning through it's energy supply quickly in order to electronically override ECM to "shout": I'M HERE! SHOOT ME!" Fighting through ECM burns out it's battery life faster, so shorter duration than on a non ECM mech.

It seems to me that given the order in which they introduced EW items, they are working from the wrong baseline. It's like they started with TAG as the baseline and built everything else in EW spectrum based on that. Makes more sense to start with ECM as the baseline of the EW suite and then re-spec all other EW items to fit in that baseline - as I've suggested above.



Using a generic scoring system of 1-5 based on how "good" an EW component is, let's tally the "balance" of various EW systems.

.................................ECM..................BAP...............TAG................NARC
WEIGHT....................Good (4)...........Avg (3).........Great (5).........Poor(2)* (launcher + ammo need)
SPACE......................Avg (3).............Avg (3)..........Great (5)........ Poor (2)
DURATION............... Great (5)..........Great (5)....... Avg (3).......... Awful (1) (limited ammo + short life)
SKILL NEED............. None (5)...........None (5)........ Avg (3).......... High (2)
EFFECTS................. Great (5)......... Avg (3).......... Avg (3).......... Poor (2)
# EW IT DEFEATS.... All 4 (5).......... 2? (2)............ 2? (2)........... 1??? (1)
SCORE.....................27/30...............21/30..............21/30.............10/30

Can't anyone else see the obviously unbalanced system???? ECM rules by overriding ALL other systems and in turn is only offset by itself, or to a very limited extent, others.

Plenty of room for interpretation of scores, and you could argue BAP gets an extra point or two for helping speed acquisition & retaining lock for a touch, but that doesn't change NARC as worthless and justify why TAG lasers as being blocked by radio waves....

Edited by WarOrk, 30 January 2013 - 05:48 PM.

[reliquery]

Thank you all for your input. It is PGI's task to implement items from battle as they are able. I must disagree with you Zakie on the verbatim issue of ecm usage. I am not aware of the C 3 issue and how it has been implemented. As stated by mwhighlander it is more a compound improper use/ game balance problem. The idea of a module and gxp unlock truly only serves the PGI staff as a potential source of added income. In a recent patch it seems that PGI altered the overheat override. Although I have a mech that was adversely affected by this, i think it was well and fairly done. Perhaps i just need to go back to TT. Now i just need to locate some victims to kidnap and make play battle tech j/k

Anyhow thanks again for the imput

[DocBach]

The Sarna description leaves out a very crucial part of the actual book description:


Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196:
"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."

Given that description and the fact that the Battletech Compendium, Master Rules, and Total Warfare all lack any rules saying ECM jams anything more than the given C3, Artemis, Narc, or Beagle, combined with this line here, from Total Warfare, pg 134:

"The ECM does not affect other scanning or targeting devices such as TAG and targeting computers"

Leads me to believe that the stealth radar cloaking field from across the map wasn't how ECM was intended to work in the original source material. In fact, even though Sarna.net isn't an officially cannon source, this is what it says about LRM's working against ECM:

"First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS."

All of this together makes me think that the jamming ECM has currently is overkill. I do, however, believe that ECM should jam 'Mechs within the 180 meter radius bubble, based on the double blind rulesets included in Tactical Operations, on pg 224:

"To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating
radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems
only affect the target unit and do not have a radius of effect, and
so are only taken into consideration for the unit mounting that
equipment). LOS does not affect this radius. If a spotting unit is
within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of
all the ECM systems."

The rules outline how ECM provides a large modifier for sensors to detect, but the spotting unit has to be within the 180 meter operating radius of the ECM. This still, however, makes it impossible for Streak missiles to lock, but luckily, according to the rules, we have several different sensors like seismic sensors which can track and lock targets. Of course, they'll be introduced as balance against our 400,000 c-bill ECM in the form of a 12,000,000 c-bill module.

Edited by DocBach, 30 January 2013 - 06:18 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

And, of course, visual detection is all that's required to use missile systems in BT anyway...

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

and the missile block effect is from the Angel ECM not Guardian (angel isnt considered even as experimental for THREE YEARS so its not even in the vaunted timeline).

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

WarOrk, on 30 January 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

ECM = ELECTRONIC Counter Measures. Makes perfect sense it would confuse missile lock systems

YET

Quote

Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.

Guardian doesnt. ANGEL does and then only streak systems, AND THEN they still fire as normal missiles.

Quote

Within its 6 hex radius of effect, the Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.

again; angel not being in the game except as experimental tech for the draconic combine only for three years down the line

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 30 January 2013 - 07:27 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

SpiralRazor, on 28 November 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

Really? Then why is it 6 hexes? why does it weight the same as in TT?

Really? Then why does it have the streak blocking quality of an ECM suite that doesnt even exist in game for three years?
THIS AINT TT

[Lykaon]

What PGI did was way over inflate the impact of ECM in their game.1.5 tons 2 crits of super powers for the whole team.

Shall we compare what 1.5 tons gets you in other pieces of equipment in game?

AMS+1 ton ammo.This will slightly reduce the number of incomming hostile missiles.Agaisnt tiny vollies it does very well vs large flights of 60 missiles it does very little.Also it is pretty much ineffective against streaks and SRMS.

Beagle Active Probe.This device allows you to target shut down mechs...yippie.it does not grant this ability to other friendlies though.

Just for laughs...NARC. This device takes up a missile hardpoint and requires ammo.To be effective it must hit a target.The effects are a very tiny window of a handful of seconds where it emulates the effects of an Artemis system.Yippie 4 tons 3 crits of crap.

Now ECM...

ECM jams NARC,BAP,Artemis and TAG.rendering all these systems even more useless than previously.

ECM also reduces enemy sensor range by 75% preventing target data and passive exchange of target locations to team mates.Essentially ECM is a stealth system and a good one.Oh did I mention it grants this ability to ALL FRIENDLIES WITHIN 180m!

ECM jamms enemy radar sytems preventing hostile AND friendly targets from appearing on the mini map.

ECM prevents any lock on weapons from attaining a lock at all as long as the firing mech or the target has ECM within 180m.This effectivley renders LRMs and Streak missile sytems useless.

ECM can even be used to counter enemy ecm by toggling mode to counter!

Wow that's a great buy for 400k 1.5 tons and 2 crits makes BAP look like utter crap for the same exact investment in tonnage,crits and C-bills.

[Lykaon]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 January 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

Really? Then why does it have the streak blocking quality of an ECM suite that doesnt even exist in game for three years?
THIS AINT TT

I can answer that for you.

It has the ability to jam streak locks because it was far easyer to impliment that than to actually ballance the hugely imballanced streak weapon mechanics.

[Novawrecker]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 January 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

... THIS AINT TT.

That excuse is getting old. For as much as any of you want to state this. This game IS based on the TT. That there were features, concepts, and design changes is, and should be, expected to accomodate the imperfect translation (and balance concerns) from tabletop to online environment. This game (and practically all games involving Mechwarrior/Battletech) bases at least 97% of material from the TT.

So are we digitally rolling dice to see if you hit someone or see how many of your LRMs hit your target? Nope, but then again refer to the "imperfect translation from TT to online environment" comment above.

On a related note: Guardian ECM does indeed exhibit features more akin to Angel ECM. The exact reasons behind this is known only to the DT and can include (but not limited to) ideals such as preping for things to come (as much as people dislike to hear or accept this: this game is still in Beta).

Edited by Novawrecker, 01 February 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Apoc1138]

hello again thread, goodbye again thread

by the way, null sig would make mechs invisible on thermal vision, ECM doesn't do that, so no, ECM is not null sig

also - if you read the description for Stealth Armour, it states that stealth armour + ECM = null sig
the only thing that stealth armour on it's own does is reduce heat signature, so null sig - heat signature reduction = ECM

seems about right to me then

[Biruke]

LRM lovers hate ECM. LRM is for firing from the distance. Indirect fire. Coward tactics. Chicken fighters?

I love ECM. It helps me kill LRM boat lovers.

[Novawrecker]

Biruke, on 01 February 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

LRM lovers hate ECM ...

No longer a 100% true statement as savvy LRM'ers have incorporated TAG and deploy tactics that help them lessen the ECM blanket. Is it still bothersome to them? Yes, but they no longer cry murder when facing ECM units.

[Apoc1138]

WarOrk, on 30 January 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

wall of text

you forgot to mention modules, which weigh nothing and take up 0 crits and partially counter ECM

[Tetatae Squawkins]

There are really two conversations here. One is that things don't function exactly as they do in TT or your previous favorite MW game. Which really doesn't matter and should not be the basis for a balance discussion. It's not TT. Get over it. These arguments had no validity 2-4-6-8 months ago and they still don't now.


The second conversation is that ECM is not balanced. Which is a legitimate issue. The upcoming changes to PPCs are going to be interesting in how easy it is to keep an enemy ECM locked down. It might instead mean that every mech in competitive play absolutely has to carry ECM to maintain coverage under fire. And ECM will still need further tuning/nerfing.

I think one of the best things to do with ECM is a weight/slot increase. Make the mech sacrifice something else to carry it.

[Lykaon]

DocBach, on 30 January 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

The Sarna description leaves out a very crucial part of the actual book description:


Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196:
"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."

Ok let's put aside the simple fact that any electronic device that emmits a broad-band signal that disrupts all sonar,radar,UV,IR and magscan sensors must be an extremley "loud" system that would be very easy to detect at a very long range.It would need to emmit sounds to disrupt sonar,radio frequencies to disrupt radar,light to disrupt UV and IR and use some specific EM emmitions to jam up magscans.This thing would litteraly shout and flash in several mediums.

How would I translate the above description into game mechanics.

Well clearly simply reducing sensor ranges to 25% of totals is overkill since it clearly stated objects can be detected within the curtain.

So perhaps instead we get normal sensor ranges that highlight targets with a target data box that only supplies range to target and an assigned target letter.

We can see target Bravo is 850m to the west but we do not see what type of mech it is or it's weapon loadout or armor status.
That is a fairly potent ability to give to a 1.5 ton device that grants that ability to all fiendlies within 180m.

Edited by Lykaon, 01 February 2013 - 04:42 AM.

[Lykaon]

crabcakes66, on 01 February 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

There are really two conversations here. One is that things don't function exactly as they do in TT or your previous favorite MW game. Which really doesn't matter and should not be the basis for a balance discussion. It's not TT. Get over it. These arguments had no validity 2-4-6-8 months ago and they still don't now.


The second conversation is that ECM is not balanced. Which is a legitimate issue. The upcoming changes to PPCs are going to be interesting in how easy it is to keep an enemy ECM locked down. It might instead mean that every mech in competitive play absolutely has to carry ECM to maintain coverage under fire. And ECM will still need further tuning/nerfing.

I think one of the best things to do with ECM is a weight/slot increase. Make the mech sacrifice something else to carry it.

The problem with increasing the wieght or slot costs on any item is,that dispite arguments to the contrary,The table top game IS the SOURCE of the mech configurations we have introduced into this game.

Changing weight or slot requirements invalidates designs and prevents easy inclusion into this game.

How would you change the 3L Raven that comes stock with ECM if suddenly it weighed more and took up more space?

That adds more problems than simply altering the functionality of the item.