46 replies to this topic

[Panzerjotun]

As presented the ECM is way to powerful. My Atlas has master unlocked and all four module slots full of sensor enhancers. All of which are rendered practically useless by ECM cloaking?

So after xping three Atlas chassis's a new player next month could hypothetically play a Raven trial mech and render my 20 million c-bills of modules useless?

The ECM bubble should work only for the mech equipping it. As presented NO mech would ever be without it. This is battletech and not stealthtech.

Why would anyone even add a BAP or Artemis now? How is an item being introduced into a competitive game that makes mechs with primarily missile hardpoints useless?

Why would any Commando, Raven, Cicada or Atlas player use a non ECM variant?

Edited by General Pace, 29 November 2012 - 05:44 AM.

[Khobai]

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Why would any Commando, Raven, Cicada or Atlas player use a non ECM variant?

The real question is why would any player use a non ECM mech? Invulnerability to 1/3rd of the weapons in the game? Yes please? Oh and if youre a fast Cicada youre invulnerable to 2/3rd the weapons in the game.

[Aquilus]

Khobai, on 29 November 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

The real question is why would any player use a non ECM mech? Invulnerability to 1/3rd of the weapons in the game? Yes please? Oh and if youre a fast Cicada youre invulnerable to 2/3rd the weapons in the game.

You're not implying that the Commando and the Raven aren't as fast as the Cicada, are you?

[Khobai]

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You're not implying that the Commando and the Raven aren't as fast as the Cicada, are you?

If you pilot a Commander or Raven youre likely to put a Jenner on the other team, and Jenners are stronger mechs. Whereas if you pilot a Cicada, worst case scenario you pull another Cicada (equal matchup), but more likely itll be a hunchback or Wang.

[Mercules]

Guys, it will come out. PGI will see it in action. The devs will go, "Oh.... huh.... well we didn't think it would be THAT bad. Wow, they seem upset." just like with Artemis, and a week or so later it will be redesigned into something useful but not over the top.

The paranoid in me keeps whispering that they release these things in broken state so they can "nerf" them back to a proper level and have people smile and clap them on the back instead of grumbling about how a proper weapon/system is unbalanced.

[Critical Fumble]

I made a thread about this a day ago, and then it sank into Daley Forum's Locker. I guess I should have added more drama, or a poll .

I'm too lazy to write it again, so I'm gonna quote myself.

Critical Fumble, on 27 November 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Disclaimer: This is neither a "Love the Guardian or leave MW:O" nor "ECM will ruin MW:O" thread. I think it could do a lot of good by adding depth to the game, but I'm also afraid of the bad it may cause of the TROLOLOLOLOLOL variety.

If you haven't yet read the dev post about it, it's here: http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/

There are two ECM modes: disrupt, which creates an umbrella that slows enemy weapons locks and prevents target sharing from inside the umbrella, and obscures target acquisition; and counter, which counters (shocker) the disrupt effect on individual mechs in its area, and can disable one enemy ECM in disrupt mode if it is in range. Both of these modes have offensive and defensive applications.

Defensively, a pilot can use ECM disrupt to create a bubble that prevents target data acquisition from a distance, making it harder to single out allies and hit them in weakened areas. An enemy spotter has a 20 meter band around an ECM mech where they can both acquire target data and not have their target data sharing disrupted. This does not apply to screened mechs as closely. If a Hunchback is 150 meters from his ECM buddy, a spotter can lock on 200 meters from him, 350 meters from the ECM, and 170 meters out of the ECM field. If the spotter were to walk into the field the ECM would prevent him from sharing target data out. This will both encourage sticking together and discourage running up and spinning circles until someone dies.

Offensively a pilot (most likely a Commando, Jenner, or Cicada) can use counter to disable an enemy ECM and allow his allies to target the enemy freely. While doing this the pilot is vulnerable to targeting and locks as well, meaning streaks and LRMS will still work on them. The other, and really rather unfortunate, offensive use for ECM is using disrupt to blind the enemy. The affected mechs can fight back, but are essentially blinded. If the mech runs out of their sight they lose the target info and have to reacquire it even if an ally keeps LOS on him. The defending ECM mech would have to chose to either continue screening his allies or turn on counter to help eliminate the spotter.

One final aspect of the ECM is that deciding who wins the EW battle is based on who has more ECMs. If in the previous example there were two offensive ECMs they could set one to disrupt and one to counter, making counter the only right choice to make as the defending ECM.

Here's my personal wishlist for ECMs and updates before they go live:

• Take the counter mode out of the Guardian and give it to another piece of equipment that can only be mounted on certain chassis.
  
• Only allow ECM mounting mechs that are vulnerable to most weapons being used with moderate skill.
  
• Have MM balance EW gear effectively.
  
• Change the winner takes all aspect of the EW battle so that having EW gear is still beneficial even if you run into enemies with more of it.
  
• Allow limited target sharing with jammed mechs at close proximity.
  
• To keep LRMs relevant with EW in game, add in the ability to manually guide direct fire LRMs. This could be a function of Artemis or the player's TAG.

Stay classy.

Later I noticed the bit about TAG being a counter to ECM, and laughed, and laughed, and laughed.

[BlackSquirrel]

Why do other people play non k2 or streak cats? Or other variants besides the 4sp?

We all know it will get tweaked.

[Khobai]

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Why do other people play non k2 or streak cats?

Because theyre pugs. And they lose. A lot.

[Aquilus]

Khobai, on 29 November 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

If you pilot a Commander or Raven youre likely to put a Jenner on the other team, and Jenners are stronger mechs. Whereas if you pilot a Cicada, worst case scenario you pull another Cicada (equal matchup), but more likely itll be a hunchback or Wang.

Depending on the lagshield effect of the match, the Commando and Raven will both be a serious threat to Jenners if they have ECM. That will invalidate the streaks of the JR7-D, while still letting them fire their own. The JR7-F won't be as effected, but trying to hunt lights with it is a frustrating experience when dealing with high-ping foes. Not sure if Cicadas being matched up against Hunchbacks is a positive for them, as the latter is an extremely capable mech.

Also, don't forget that we won't be matched based on weight class come next match, so argument is void anyway

[00dawg]

I'm still trying to figure out how the no-missile-lock idea got included. The delay in locking on is a great concept, but to totally render someone's missiles useless has no basis in BattleTech canon, and is obviously going to have huge implications for play balance.
As it is, you can remove the other side's bigger missile boats from play simply by assigning them a faster shadow they can't escape.
Organized teams will be able to deal with the issue, but woe be unto the lone wolf who loves missiles.

[Taryys]

This will get fixed once they really see it in play and start gathering real usage data.
Disabling BAP and TAG is kind of annoying.

[Mercules]

I've got a friend who plays Indirect Fire Support who is having a meltdown right now, despite the fact that I told him we could simply counteract his issue with organized play and taking ECM and TAG ourselves. I think the "No Missile Lock" thing adds another depth too it that simply wouldn't be there without it. It isn't even really No Missile Lock, you simply can't target a mech beyond 1/4 of your max range. If you could target the mech but it takes twice as long to lock on, it still doesn't help "scouting" mechs move in on you in secret. That is really the point of ECM, to cover enemy movements. Cutting your sensor range down means you can visually spot them, but you can't "Lock On Target". If my little red flag goes up when I get close it really doesn't help me scout ahead, does it?

Reducing Sensors down to 1/4 might be a bit too much though. Maybe cut sensors in 1/2? I bet that will be their goal after they release and there is public outcry. That puts a scouting mech just outside Medium Laser range and just within Large/TAG range. Gives LRMs a "band" of space they can play in that is large enough to maybe give them one launch before a faster mech might be on them.

[Taryys]

Yea, I am a bit concerned too, since I play mostly LRM Cats.
Fortunately, I usually play with my clan, so I may be affected less than some.


I guess I shall see how this plays out.

[MeerKatV]

Mercules, on 29 November 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

I've got a friend who plays Indirect Fire Support who is having a meltdown right now, despite the fact that I told him we could simply counteract his issue with organized play and taking ECM and TAG ourselves. I think the "No Missile Lock" thing adds another depth too it that simply wouldn't be there without it. It isn't even really No Missile Lock, you simply can't target a mech beyond 1/4 of your max range. If you could target the mech but it takes twice as long to lock on, it still doesn't help "scouting" mechs move in on you in secret. That is really the point of ECM, to cover enemy movements. Cutting your sensor range down means you can visually spot them, but you can't "Lock On Target". If my little red flag goes up when I get close it really doesn't help me scout ahead, does it?

Reducing Sensors down to 1/4 might be a bit too much though. Maybe cut sensors in 1/2? I bet that will be their goal after they release and there is public outcry. That puts a scouting mech just outside Medium Laser range and just within Large/TAG range. Gives LRMs a "band" of space they can play in that is large enough to maybe give them one launch before a faster mech might be on them.

I have to agree that 1/2 reduction in sensor range makes more sense than 1/4 - LRM boats need some kind of chance to respond before being locked down permanently. Backup weapons for this loadout is also now a must. Thermal vision is going to be critical in getting a heads up on incoming fast ECM mechs - if it glows but it's not registering on your sensors then watch out.

[Panzerjotun]

No item should neuter the weapon system(s) of another mech. This sort of overt nerfing is not going to keep people playing (and paying) MWO. I think it's crazy that people have spent money on Founders and MDC only to have their favorite mechs made useless because of an ECM?

If I had my druthers ECM would be a recon tool only - something to protect lights when they scout. It should NOT kill missile lock 100% - If I actually eyeball you and put my reticle on you my target lock SHOULD WORK. If I don't see you with my eyes then yes you should be invisible if using terrain to hide with ECM.

ECM should not turn the rest of my team into Ninjas. It should only work for the mech equipping it.

[Evilsmirk]

The LRM boats are a little too worried about the no missle lock thing. A 'mech with or hidden by ECM will take twice as long to lock on to. You only lose the ablity to lock on to a target if you are inside an enemy ECM bubble. That means an enemy 'mech is within 180M of you. At that point you have bigger worries than not being able to shoot someone 650M away...

Edited by Evilsmirk, 29 November 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[BlackSquirrel]

Khobai, on 29 November 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Because theyre pugs. And they lose. A lot.

Plenty of people that dont play FOTM builds to Epeen in some lEEt premade. Matter of fact most people I see ******** about ECM are people that know the boating or FOTM builds are going to be the most impacted.

Learn to adapt.

[Mancu]

I don't even play LRM boats and I think the current ECM model is horribly unfair. It will relegate missiles to the scrap heap. Imagine the howling if they released a module that kept Lasers or ballistic weapons from firing!

[Jay Kroc]

I really like what they've come up with regarding the Guardian and I can barely wait to see it in action.At least it gives the Commando and Raven a bit of a raison d'être when compared to the allmighty Jenner.

Edited by Jay Kroc, 29 November 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[OpCentar]

I predict they will increase the sensor detection range of ECM equipped mechs. 200m is just silly. Probably will be buffed to 400m.

Not sure on missile targeting system. I would allow Artemis to function as TAG vs ECM equipped mechs within 180m, just without the usual bonuses - grouping, etc. It's heavy, uses more expensive ammo and has a infrared laser designator. I don't think basic ECM can hide thermals so that's plausible enough.

Or simply make the TAG a module instead of using energy weapon hardpoints. That way missile boats won't have to lose their precious few energy weapons and still be able to fire their primary armament.