46 replies to this topic

[Sprouticus]

First and foremost DONT PANIC.

In the end I agree that the 180m bubble and 200m max range is a bit restrictive. But let's not get all worked up and hyperbolic.

It is possible that it will work out fine. People were crying rivers over DHS and I think most of us agree that it worked out ok. It is also possible that 200m is too close and it will be a problem

It is possible that e'everyone will take ECM mechs'. It is also possible that they will just be a % of the mechs taken. It does certainly give people a reason to take those variants, reason they may not have had perviously.

In the end after 12/4 we will test it. If it breaks the game, Im sure PGI will make changes. It is an incredibly complex system as game systems go (part of the reason I love it), and it will need tuning one wa or the other.


My guess is that they will end up around 150m bubble and 300-400m max range. But that is just a guess.

[Mancu]

Evilsmirk, on 29 November 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

The LRM boats are a little too worried about the no missle lock thing. A 'mech with or hidden by ECM will take twice as long to lock on to. You only lose the ablity to lock on to a target if you are inside an enemy ECM bubble. That means an enemy 'mech is within 180M of you. At that point you have bigger worries than not being able to shoot someone 650M away...

I'm afraid you've missed part of what ECM does. You can't achieve a lock within 180m but mechs within the ECM screen also do not show up on HUD outside of 200m. If they don't show up on HUD then you cannot get a missile lock. Additionally, friendly mechs CANNOT relay info to the missile mechs. The only way around this is to have a mech tag them (only a 450m range, direct line of site) and keep them lit while the lock is achieved and the missiles travel to the target. All the while that tagging mech has to stay alive and in place.

[Freeride Forever]

Mancu, on 29 November 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

I don't even play LRM boats and I think the current ECM model is horribly unfair. It will relegate missiles to the scrap heap. Imagine the howling if they released a module that kept Lasers or ballistic weapons from firing!

Only the ones that lock on, and that's pretty much where they belong. I'd prefer to see missles that follow a laser, like TAG & need to be steered to the target (like that missle launcher in HL-2) than something that locks on & then you fire & forget it.

Edited by Freeride Forever, 29 November 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[Xeven]

Not sure what BT Canon says but ECM is not stealth. It simply jams sensors usually Radar) and not 100% of the time. If anything ECM should just reduce the amount of missles hitting a mech using ECM not make the Mech invisible to sensors or immune to lock on.

ECM is usually just noise to confuse radar, advanced systems attempt to mimic radar frequency of the lock radar and pump out lots of noise in same frequency to confuse missle locks. Again ECM is not stealth technology. Ad the very minimum you would see the noise created by ECM on radar. Advanced lock systems emply ECCM and use modulating frequencies to limit the disruption caused by ECM.

Any missle following TAG would never be effected by ECM. I can see ECM being used to bolc NARC however.

Edited by Xeven, 29 November 2012 - 08:03 AM.

[Evilsmirk]

Mancu, on 29 November 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

I'm afraid you've missed part of what ECM does. You can't achieve a lock within 180m but mechs within the ECM screen also do not show up on HUD outside of 200m. If they don't show up on HUD then you cannot get a missile lock. Additionally, friendly mechs CANNOT relay info to the missile mechs. The only way around this is to have a mech tag them (only a 450m range, direct line of site) and keep them lit while the lock is achieved and the missiles travel to the target. All the while that tagging mech has to stay alive and in place.

Ok LRMs have always needed a spotter to be effective. Now they'll just need one that is better than they did before. And said spotter has two ways to counter the ECM bubble. TAG as mentioned. Or turn his own ECM to COUNTER mode and close to reveal the whole group. The only current LRM platform that can't equip it's own TAG is the CAT-A1, so they can solve thier own issue.

It'll take adapting, and there will be play-style pendulum swings, but things will even themselves out.

[Jason1138]

it will just create a valid role for line of sight sniper builds over LRM builds

i don't see any problem with ECM at all, as its proposed now

[Franchi]

Evilsmirk, on 29 November 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

The LRM boats are a little too worried about the no missle lock thing. A 'mech with or hidden by ECM will take twice as long to lock on to. You only lose the ablity to lock on to a target if you are inside an enemy ECM bubble. That means an enemy 'mech is within 180M of you. At that point you have bigger worries than not being able to shoot someone 650M away...

And you can't target ECM shielded mechs beyond 200m See why LRM boats might be a little worried?

[Evilsmirk]

Xeven, on 29 November 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

Not sure what BT Canon says but ECM is not stealth. It simply jams sensors usually Radar) and not 100% of the time. If anything ECM should just reduce the amount of missles hitting a mech using ECM not make the Mech invisible to sensors or immune to lock on.

ECM is usually just noise to confuse radar, advanced systems attempt to mimic radar frequency of the lock radar and pump out lots of noise in same frequency to confuse missle locks. Again ECM is not stealth technology. Ad the very minimum you would see the noise created by ECM on radar. Advanced lock systems emply ECCM and use modulating frequencies to limit the disruption caused by ECM.

Any missle following TAG would never be effected by ECM. I can see ECM being used to bolc NARC however.

Real world ECM systems can do some pretty amazing things. From the traditional fill the sky with noise so all they see is static, to tricking the system into thinking it sees nothing at all. They can even make it think it sees things coming from a different direction while at the same time not see what's really coming in from another. They are currently deployed to support convoys in Afganistan to either prevent an IED from receiving a detonation signal or the same system can cause the IED to trigger "safely" when no one is around. So yes this actually more "realistic" than giant robots with guns.

[Franchi]

Evilsmirk, on 29 November 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

Ok LRMs have always needed a spotter to be effective. Now they'll just need one that is better than they did before. And said spotter has two ways to counter the ECM bubble. TAG as mentioned. Or turn his own ECM to COUNTER mode and close to reveal the whole group. The only current LRM platform that can't equip it's own TAG is the CAT-A1, so they can solve thier own issue.

It'll take adapting, and there will be play-style pendulum swings, but things will even themselves out.

Ever tried to hold tag on a mech at 200m+ for 10 seconds? Yeah I didn't think so, If you ever had against anything other than an atlas you would understand how ridiculously hard that is, if you are that good with beam weapons take some lasers and core the guy. Doubling lock-on time will mean that losing lock (tag LOS broken) will make it near impossible to require in time to hit. And even if the enemy is oblivious to your tag the "INCOMING MISSILE" warning will give them plenty of time to run behind cover from the missiles, or break los to you.

That's not even talking about the other team shooting while you wave your tag (points both ways and requires you to be inside 450m) in the wind or the fact that the ECM Mech can close with you and jam even your tag.

Edited by Franchi, 29 November 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Mancu]

Franchi, on 29 November 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Ever tried to hold tag on a mech at 200m+ for 10 seconds? Yeah I didn't think so, If you ever had against anything other than an atlas you would understand how ridiculously hard that is, if you are that good with beam weapons take some lasers and core the guy. Doubling lock-on time will mean that losing lock (tag LOS broken) will make it near impossible to require in time to hit. And even if the enemy is oblivious to your tag the "INCOMING MISSILE" warning will give them plenty of time to run behind cover from the missiles, or break los to you.

That's not even talking about the other team shooting while you wave your tag (points both ways and requires you to be inside 450m) in the wind or the fact that the ECM Mech can close with you and jam even your tag.

Now, now, surely you are overreacting. Maintaining a TAG beam on a moving enemy mech for 10 or 15 seconds while being directly exposed to the entire enemy team from within 450m range can't be that hard! I'm betting most people will find that super easy.

[Evilsmirk]

Franchi, on 29 November 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Ever tried to hold tag on a mech at 200m+ for 10 seconds? Yeah I didn't think so, If you ever had against anything other than an atlas you would understand how ridiculously hard that is, if you are that good with beam weapons take some lasers and core the guy. Doubling lock-on time will mean that losing lock (tag LOS broken) will make it near impossible to require in time to hit. And even if the enemy is oblivious to your tag the "INCOMING MISSILE" warning will give them plenty of time to run behind cover from the missiles, or break los to you.

That's not even talking about the other team shooting while you wave your tag (points both ways and requires you to be inside 450m) in the wind or the fact that the ECM Mech can close with you and jam even your tag.

Yes actually I have. While both of us are moving. Some maps are easier than others to do this of course. TAG as a slight delay from when it leaves the target until you lose the benefit. Get your TAG back on before that happens and there is no problem.

As for the other team shooting you, well yeah that would make it harder, but then if you coordinated it correctly the rest of your team is 150M-300M in front of you and a bigger worry. And if their ECM 'mech runs off to block you he's no longer protecting his team.

Yes, one on one a LRM boat is in deep against an ECM equiped 'mech. But then one on one an LRM boat is in deep no matter what I guess. It's a good thing he has 7 other 'mechs on his team to help out though isn't it?

All I'm saying is even if LRMs are rock and ECM the paper, there are scissors out there, find and use them. Crying "paper is OP" before you've even seen it is ridiculous.

[Jman5]

All this will do is increase the use of non lock-on weapons. So people will be using more SRMs instead of SSRMs. Or people might switch out some LRMs for another long range weapon. TAG use will also increase noticeably.

Meta-game will change, but it's fine to force people out of their comfort zone occasionally.

[Screech]

Cicadas and Ravens will become the new boogeymen and there will be much QQ about them coming and eating players babies. I expect the Cicada to probably win in a fight much like Freddy vs. Jason as to who is the scariest of them all. I believe it will be determined in a poll topic on who to nerf first.

Commandos will be exempt from the outrage because they are still Commandos even with ECM.

About a month later ECM will be patched to become useless and the wheel will keep turning.

[Imagine Dragons]

"HEY GUYS DON'T WORRY, THE DEVS WILL KNEE-JERK NERF ECM LIKE THEY DID WITH ARTEMIS! DERP!"

How the !#$% did people forget that in the Artemis patch, Artemis did not make LRMs go godmode?

It was a bug that old CBT code for the flight paths of LRMs managed to get reinserted into the game. Artemis was NOT intended to have the results of having missiles drop from 90 degree angles...

[Ironxxx]

I applaud the ECM description as is. It adds another layer of complexity to a game and further seperates MWO from other FPS's which can only be a good thing. A mech sim is what we wanted right?
I also already own two of the mechs in the list and I don't run LRM boats but I'd love to act as a spotter for you guys, I relish the challenge.

[Trauglodyte]

If TAG were more user friendly and maybe didn't require an Energy HP, I hardly doubt anyone would really be that concerned over the implications of the system. I like how they're putting ECM in as it allows them a lot of wiggle room to make adjustements.

The only two things that I don't like about it is that the Jenner shouldn't have ECM (good lord, why do they have it?) and that I"ve gotta grind up the cbills to buy the damned 3M variant of my Cicada.

[Imagine Dragons]

Trauglodyte, on 29 November 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

If TAG were more user friendly and maybe didn't require an Energy HP, I hardly doubt anyone would really be that concerned over the implications of the system. I like how they're putting ECM in as it allows them a lot of wiggle room to make adjustements.

The only two things that I don't like about it is that the Jenner shouldn't have ECM (good lord, why do they have it?) and that I"ve gotta grind up the cbills to buy the damned 3M variant of my Cicada.

They removed Jenners from the list of ECM capable mechs.

[Mad Elf]

Freeride Forever, on 29 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Only the ones that lock on, and that's pretty much where they belong. I'd prefer to see missles that follow a laser, like TAG & need to be steered to the target (like that missle launcher in HL-2) than something that locks on & then you fire & forget it.

You've never actually fired an LRM, have you? You have to maintain lock on the target during the entire flight of the missiles -- lose it for a fraction of a second, and the lock is gone and they pile into the landscape. (If you're lucky, some of them might hit the target, if it hasn't moved). This means your spotter mech has to keep the target in view for the entire time -- and that's assuming there isn't enough AMS in the area to take them down, or cover to hide behind. This has always been the case, except for a couple of weeks during closed beta (when you could reacquire lock and the missiles would retarget if they were far enough out; of course people whined and whined until that got nerfed out).

Similarly, with the length of time required for lock, actually fighting with SSRMs (as opposed to gunning down a stationary target) is a real skill. One that some of us have taken a lot of time to perfect... only to have a bunch of pansies that are too clumsy to fight back whine them out of existence. "But streak cats can kill me if I sit still long enough, so they must be OP, wah wah wah..." They increased the time-to-lock, decreased the accuracy, doubled the cost per missile... and now this ECM nonsense: a 20m-wide annulus outside which you can't use the weapons at all, and even inside it the lock time is doubled -- and it's at the sort of range where the target's speed and AMS does the best job of negating SSRMs anyway. Nice job breaking it, devs...

You know what the real skill-free noob weapons are? Lasers. Press the button, wave the beam across the target... instant damage, no talent required. Thank the powers that the heat mechanic stops people from spamming with them as much as they no doubt want to.

[Will HellFire]

Well, I think all the whiners here are missing the main point: It creates a specialized role that MUST be executed properly to be effective. 180m of ECM bubble is not that much, and the pilot must cover his teammates with it, meaning going relatively slow or even stationary with a light Mech...that's a recipee for quick death.

ECM Mechs only NEGATE locks when 180m of the firer, which by then is worried about blasting that nuisance light mech out of the battlefield.

I find it adds another welcome layer to the game, it requires skill and if well used can make the LRM battery job more difficult...with Artemis and TAG, it was wayyyy to easy. Now you need specilized spotters equipped with TAG or even your own Guardian ECM to counter the enemy's....its not an easy job anymore.

Edited by Will HellFire, 04 December 2012 - 02:51 AM.

[Raidyr]

Please, please run more Commandos. But only on the enemy team.