19 replies to this topic

[COMET STRATUS]

Hey guys,

I have been giving a lot of thought to Clan Tech and how it should be implemented.
I had an idea which I thought was pretty damn good and would fix a lot of the balance issues at least at the start when the tech starts trickling in.

What if they combined Clan Tech with a PvE Horde-like mode?
I am imagining that it would be a unwinnable neverending wave of Clan forces vs. a team of 8-12 players. Incude strategic points which you have to try to hold for as long as possible against overwhelming odds.

It would fit in with the canon for the first few years of Clan conflict because outside of very few instances the IS was constantly handed their *** by the Clans.

I would also allow players to basically get Clan scrap from these PvE matches which they can then use. I think it would be best to make the weapons unrepairable as well so that if you use your brand new clan Gauss rifle in a match and get it blown up you have to go into the PvE mode to get more scrap. This would also fit in with the canon IMO because the IS definitely didn't have the ability to repair clain tech at this point.

There are a few good points with a mode like this. One is that it will give the game more variety in the end. I personally think the game needs some sort of PvE mode in order for it to be truly popular. A lot of people do not like competitive games and will automatically be turned off by a PvP centric online game.

What does everyone think about a mode like this?

[Quad Ace]

I've suggested this myself, and seen several others as well. No one seems interested in anything besides what the BETA offers now...

[COMET STRATUS]

Yeah I know a few friends who would probably play the game if there were some sort of PvE content.
I think this also might cater to the people who like the game but don't really like working together with a team in a competitive environment. Since that seems to make up a large portion of the complaints on the board.

And yeah it just makes too much sense not to do it. The clans were an unstoppable force when they showed up and they should be portrayed as such in the world. A unwinnable horde mode could be really fun in my opinion and an interesting way to present Clan tech.

[Vassago Rain]

Since when do the clans use zerg tactics to mob heroic inner sphere mechs?

[Manicus]

It sounds cool, and a pve would be nice for a change and for those who don't like to always pvp, but the idea of 'hordes of clanners' just doesn't work. The clans fought by bidding lower and lower amounts of forces because it qas more honourable to destroy your enemy with inferior forces but superior tactics/skill. Ifthe universe had some sort of horde type enemy sure. It does not.

[StoneMason]

Vassago Rain, on 29 November 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Since when do the clans use zerg tactics to mob heroic inner sphere mechs?

Since they started adhering to a strict honour code when it came to combat. The pilot's skill and gunnery might be excellent (superhuman even) and the Mech's and weapons superb but when it came to actual tactics the Clanners were lacking for quite a while.

This way PGI can force the Clan interactions to involve bidding and Zellbrigen at the start of the match and limiting the Clantech to what the Inner Sphere community can scavenge. Also, AI Elementals, the little guys can latch on and start crawling all over your mech. Imagine having to turn to a friend in a drop and carefully shoot them off.

[Hawkwings]

Too bad you'd get stomped into the ground by the first wave of a single star of clan mechs...

[Vassago Rain]

Hawkwings, on 29 November 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

Too bad you'd get stomped into the ground by the first wave of a single star of clan mechs...

Well, obviously it'd be more like a raid boss. So you take your gausscat to provide the DPS from X yards, while the two fatlases must remain in contact with the clanner mob endlessly, and your premium mobifle field base repairs them with constant casts of - and I can't go on.

This thread is very stupid. It's also like Hawk says. You'd get stomped by the first group.

[xDark]

Making the Clans AI-only would pretty much alienate PGI's Clanner playerbase. It wouldn't be fair to allow IS players to play as their favorite house, but not allow Clan players to play as their favorite clan. I'm a clanner and I would hate it.

Instead of that, Clan vs IS matches should just be very uneven. You could do, say, 2 stars vs 3 lances, 1 star vs 2 lances, etc, or if tonnage-based MM were implemented you could give the IS side 50%+ more tonnage or something. Salvage should also be item-based instead of cash-based so IS players have access to Clan tech.

Either way, I have complete faith that PGI will do a great job of implementing the Clans and keeping most of us happy in the process.

TL;DR Let us Clanners play as the Clans

Edited by xDark, 29 November 2012 - 12:46 AM.

[COMET STRATUS]

I don't mean making it Clan only but as a way to integrate the clan tech into the game without throwing balance out the window. I really don't think they will be able to come up with a way to make it balanced enough to allow clan play unless they time jump to a point where IS tech was at least starting to catch up a little bit.

Also, I don't mean zerg tactics 100% and it would handle just like other horde modes with them coming in waves. Basically the AI would batchall and send appropriate forces after you until you are dead. I am pretty sure there is precedent in the fluff for those kind of tactics. Sorry that I didn't explain that well enough. It wouldn't be zerg tactics but waves of clan forces sent by batchall.

And the whole "Make the teams uneven for the clans" is one way to go about things but even still the clan tech if impletemented correctly would still be overpowered enough to destroy teams. If they can hit you from almost twice the difference( I can't remember accurate ranges sorry) does it really matter how many people you have if you get destroyed before you are in range.

Edited by COMET STRATUS, 29 November 2012 - 12:58 AM.

[Quad Ace]

xDark, I do agree, but I also think that this game needs some sort of PvE. If not for any other reason but to keep farmers out of our PvP.

The clans just seem like a perfect opportunity, at the beginning of the invasion. Stick them with PvE for a while, then later on (when different PvE options are ready) open the clans up to players.

[dal10]

sad thing is the clans only did well due to it being canon. with a battalion in a good defensive position with factors limiting range, you could easily pull 10 kills on the clan per death. combination of focus fire and decent positioning. You would kill at least a cluster or 2 before they wise up.

[COMET STRATUS]

@dal10 Yeah if you are able to limit their range that is a big factor. However there are more tech factors than just extended range stuff. Their mechs are just better all around for the most part.

That is why I think it would be good in a PvE mode like this. Give the players a defensible position to take on stars of clan omnimechs one after the other...It just seems so perfect and fits well with the world and game design.

I think that letting people play Clans should come later honestly(maybe after Turkyaid since they were starting to integrate more with the IS at that point), maybe giving the IS players time to horde some clan tech scrap so the tables will be somewhat even.

[Vassago Rain]

COMET STRATUS, on 29 November 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

I don't mean making it Clan only but as a way to integrate the clan tech into the game without throwing balance out the window. I really don't think they will be able to come up with a way to make it balanced enough to allow clan play unless they time jump to a point where IS tech was at least starting to catch up a little bit.

Also, I don't mean zerg tactics 100% and it would handle just like other horde modes with them coming in waves. Basically the AI would batchall and send appropriate forces after you until you are dead. I am pretty sure there is precedent in the fluff for those kind of tactics. Sorry that I didn't explain that well enough. It wouldn't be zerg tactics but waves of clan forces sent by batchall.

And the whole "Make the teams uneven for the clans" is one way to go about things but even still the clan tech if impletemented correctly would still be overpowered enough to destroy teams. If they can hit you from almost twice the difference( I can't remember accurate ranges sorry) does it really matter how many people you have if you get destroyed before you are in range.

That's not how clanners work.
They see something they want, they'll challenge the owners for it. After they've stated that they want it, they'll bid among themselves to reach the lowest possible level of forces, and if you beat them fair and square, you...beat them fair and square. They don't zerg rush. They don't even cooperate on the battlefield, or target the same guy, because that's BARBARIC, and DISHONORABLE. If you were to somehow beat that clanner under his own rules, he'd have to hand over whatever you demanded, or he'd lose all his HONOR, too.

[StoneMason]

Does not work. Offended by your cowardly tactics they combat drop on your Battalion support units who are wiped out to a man. You either starve or lose effectives from minimal maintenance and no ammo.

If you focus fire on a Clan Mech at the wrong moment then Zell is off and they pile on the attack.

dal10, on 29 November 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

sad thing is the clans only did well due to it being canon. with a battalion in a good defensive position with factors limiting range, you could easily pull 10 kills on the clan per death. combination of focus fire and decent positioning. You would kill at least a cluster or 2 before they wise up.

[COMET STRATUS]

Vassago Rain, on 29 November 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

That's not how clanners work.
They see something they want, they'll challenge the owners for it. After they've stated that they want it, they'll bid among themselves to reach the lowest possible level of forces, and if you beat them fair and square, you...beat them fair and square. They don't zerg rush. They don't even cooperate on the battlefield, or target the same guy, because that's BARBARIC, and DISHONORABLE. If you were to somehow beat that clanner under his own rules, he'd have to hand over whatever you demanded, or he'd lose all his HONOR, too.

Actually might want to check up on your canon. Or maybe I am remembering wrong but I thought that if the person who won the bid loses the battle then the next star colonel or whatever steps in to use his bid to try and take the target. And that keeps going on and on until they win. There is too much of this clan romanticism that makes them like some sort of uber samurai. No they were actually just militaristic ruthless *****. And that is how I like them thank you very much.

[dal10]

StoneMason, on 29 November 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Does not work. Offended by your cowardly tactics they combat drop on your Battalion support units who are wiped out to a man. You either starve or lose effectives from minimal maintenance and no ammo.

If you focus fire on a Clan Mech at the wrong moment then Zell is off and they pile on the attack.

point me to a clan mech who can survive a single volley from an entire battalion and then you can talk. lets take a star. 1st mech goes down in volley one, other 4 react, some of them have already fired on other targets, so those weapons are charging reloading whatever. sporadic return fire, then second volley. 3 mechs left, those 3 mechs focus on the nearest mech, it takes damage, possibly even destroyed if it is a light mech, next volley, 2 mechs left. even with just the spare hits that missed the target mechs, they will probably be beat up. at best they manage to destroy the mech they were shooting, next volley, there is one badly hurt mech left. he fires off a couple of shots then is quickly finished off. even an entire company at one target is going to savage if not outright destroy the targeted mech. so most likely you are going to get at least 1 death for 5 kills, and maybe some damage on another couple of mechs. 5 times 36 is about 180. that is 4 clusters. 4 units that are roughly equivalent to a regiment. of course fire is going to degrade as mechs get damaged and go down as well as run out of ammo. so lets halve that. 2 clusters. the equivalent to 2 regiments of your mechs for a single battalion. considering the clans were outnumbered 10 to one, I call that a good trade.

edit: even if you only managed to take out a single cluster that is a great trade. at the start of the combine-GB war the wolves had 9 galaxies and the bears had 12. assuming falcons-nova kitties and the other big clans had similar numbers, you could estimate maybe 50 galaxies TOTAL among the clans. 50 times 225 is 11125 warriors. vs 500 (roughly, based on phelan kells interrogation) regiments. assuming all mech regiments (I know they aren't but this is just a comparison.) at 120 a piece (3 batts 36 plus command company) you get 60,000 warriors. or nearly 5 times the clans. so as long as I kill more than 1 warrior for every 5 units destroyed on my side, I come out ahead in the long run. so to come out ahead I only have to destroy an average of 8 clan mechs per battalion I lose. which would be child's play. even double that number of galaxies is doable. 1 trinary killed per battalion lost. no matter how tough the clans are, that is long odds.

Edited by dal10, 29 November 2012 - 01:37 AM.

[COMET STRATUS]

StoneMason, on 29 November 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Does not work. Offended by your cowardly tactics they combat drop on your Battalion support units who are wiped out to a man. You either starve or lose effectives from minimal maintenance and no ammo.

If you focus fire on a Clan Mech at the wrong moment then Zell is off and they pile on the attack.

Yeah and that is an awesome idea that could totally be used in this mode! The point isn't for you to win and I think situations like that would be awesome as ****.

I still think a mode like this would be much easier to implement and balance than IS vs. Clan matches. Especially since there is NO WAY for you to make players stick to strict clan rules. Hell no one I have ever seen in any Mechwarrior match who claims to be a clanner has ever stuck to Zell.

[StoneMason]

dal10, on 29 November 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

point me to a clan mech who can survive a single volley from an entire battalion and then you can talk.

Point me to terrain that allows an entire Battalion of Mech's to effectively fire on a single target while simultaneously protecting every asset on the planet they are defending along with the support train that allows them to function. Oh, as per your previous statement all the Mech's must be in close terrain suited to defence allowing for interlocking fields of fire. It's a good thing the Clan's don't have arty, I'd hate to see how long your force would last in Fulda.

[dal10]

knowing the clans obsession with wiping out the defenders, they don't need to defend all the assets on the planet. Basically I am using the clans honor against them. if there are any other defending units on the planet, they couldn't afford to ignore a batt scale unit. they march against the other one you come up behind them while they are fighting the other battalion or whatever it is and flank them. roll up the clans, and all of a sudden they can't shoot without hitting their teamates. boom, you effectively have a numerical advantage, because their units are packed so closely together they can't effectively fire.