322 replies to this topic

[ConnorSinclair]

TruePoindexter, on 29 November 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

To be fair - it was broken in MW3. It followed TT rules fairly closely and so in the upper tiers of play lasers reigned supreme. 12 ER Medium Laser and 16 ER Small Laser boats made up the vast majority of the field unless energy weapons were removed from play (in the league games you could bid on what weapons were allowed).

In MWO I see a nice spread of lasers, AC's, and missiles. PPC's, Large Pulse Lasers, and ER Large Lasers are definitely viable on builds that center around them. Really I only think the ER PPC is a bit broken and regular PPC's could use a slight boost.

You only see a nice spread because everyone is FORCED to and even then canon builds like the awesome are shafted.

Oh and my dual AC20 Atlas would like a word with you.

[Foster Bondroff]

I think 2.0/0.2 would be prolly a bit to much. I would start with all DHS at 1.9/0.19 and see how it works.

Arguments here http://mwomercs.com/...23#entry1519323

In the aftermath ER PPC migh need a little ajustment, to make it a real alternative like 12 heat instead of the current 13.

But for most other high heat weapons DHS at 1.9/0.19 would work fine in my experience.

Edited by Foster Bondroff, 02 December 2012 - 03:29 AM.

[Bloody Moon]

1.9/0.19 would be fine as with the in-game skills you get roughly the TT value (a bit more but meh).

[Not a Number]

I have to say, if PGI wants SHS to be viable, I don't understand why they decided to leave internal engine DHS efficiency at 2.0 while setting external efficiency to 1.4. Not to mention leaving the Coolrun efficiency at +7.5%/+15% (it gets doubled at Elite) for both heatsink types.

Mechs with engine rating 250+ basically get 10 SHS for free which is already more than most mechs have tonnage to spare (10 tons + 10 criticals with SHS, 0 tons + 0 crits with DHS, not taking into account engine weight). The dreaded 3-second-Jenner currently already has most DHS at 2.0 efficiency.

It would make more sense to at least equalize DHS efficiency. If it were set to 1.8 for example, efficiency as compared to the current system would balance around 15 DHS. Mechs with less DHS would be slightly worse off and mechs with more would be slightly better off. That's a slight buff to high energy builds needing all the critical space they can spare for DHS, and it's not like (ER) PPC's and the like can't use some love.

Now since the 15% efficiency bonus from Coolrun would basically put 1.8 DHS at an efficiency of 2.07 (I presume), PGI might as well nerf the Coolrun bonus for DHS to something like +1.5%/+3.0% and simply leave DHS efficiency at 2.0. At the same time they could increase the Coolrun bonus for SHS to make them more viable. Or make it add a flat bonus per individual (external?) heatsink. It's such a cheap efficiency anyway.

Of course changing Coolrun wouldn't change the trial mech issues (they don't earn the XP to unlock it), but there's better ways to solve them than to simply mess with heatsink values. Like community selected custom builds.

Why buff SHS and not simply nerf all DHS to 1.4? Because it's the SHS builds that have a lot of heat issues, with DHS builds feeling pretty alright heat wise. To me, anyway.

[MWHawke]

It's called DOUBLE heat sink for a reason. Also, the fact that it takes up triple slots highly limits the amount you can squeeze in to a mech. It's not called One, Four-Tenths Heat Sink..

[MustrumRidcully]

RobinSage, on 01 December 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I personally will be the devils advocate here, sorry guys, but 2.0 DHS would be absolutely insane for virtually all of my Assault builds. I could probably mount 4 LPL's with true 2.0's and not overheat while chaining them CONSTANTLY. That's way out of balance and personally I don't have a problem with heat running just about any class mech with most configurations. BTW if you think that running 3 ERPPC's will ever be heat efficient you're out of your mind. PPC based weapons are SUPPOSED TO BE HEAT INEFFICIENT by design.

I don't know what Battletech you played, or what rule books you have at home, but heat efficient PPC builds are quite possible and exist in Battletech. THere are both heat efficient and heat inefficient Mechs in the table top game. The Marauder fielded two PPCs and only 16 heat sinks, overheating quickly, while the Awesome 8Q had 28 heat sinks and 3 PPCs and heat up only very slowly.

And I am absolutely and entirely unscared by your 4 LPL build with true double heat sinks. It doesn't sound overpowered or imbalanced at all to me, considering that we have mechs that use Dual Gauss Rifles on a heavy mech (that's about 10 to 35 tons less than your Assault boogeyman),or heck, potentially even use Dual Gauss + 1 PPC. More range, similar damage output... what's there to fear about your LPL?
Or how about a Dual AC/20 mech? Similar range (270m vs 300m), all damage in one blow.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 02 December 2012 - 05:38 AM.

[Nulnoil]

Signed. DHS are useless for med+ mechs now.

[shabowie]

MustrumRidcully, on 02 December 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

I don't know what Battletech you played, or what rule books you have at home, but heat efficient PPC builds are quite possible and exist in Battletech.

The answers you are looking is he never did and he doesn't have any.

Also his claim that he could repeatedly fire 4 LPL without ever overheating with true DHS isn't mathematically possible. It's like the ole 3 second Atlas coring.

It's 9 hps btw, good luck dissipating that!

Edited by shabowie, 03 December 2012 - 12:56 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

I really don't even understand how there's an argument here. One side has math. The side with math is right. Always.

[Roadbuster]

The current DHS are working fine for me. After all, heat management should be a part of the game.
Some weapons generate too much heat though and still require some adjustments. PPC for example was already mentioned to get a heat reduction.

The only thing that bothers me is that DHS take up 3 slots and can't be equipped in the legs because of that.
Please reduce the size of DHS to 2 slots.

[MWHawke]

Roadbuster, on 03 December 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

The current DHS are working fine for me. After all, heat management should be a part of the game.
Some weapons generate too much heat though and still require some adjustments. PPC for example was already mentioned to get a heat reduction.

The only thing that bothers me is that DHS take up 3 slots and can't be equipped in the legs because of that.
Please reduce the size of DHS to 2 slots.

Heat management IS part of the game. However, with engine DHS working at 2.0 and external 1.4, how is that fair to bigger mechs which can mount bigger heat-heavy weapons? The inability to mount heavier heat-heavy weapons is a limitation that allows lights to match the firepower of heavier mechs. That doesn't make sense..

[John Norad]

Roadbuster, on 03 December 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

The current DHS are working fine for me.

What mech/loadout?
It doesn't work for all, which it should.

[wanderer]

The funny thing here is this: Battletech itself renders the single heat sink an artifact of the Succession Wars as soon as the DHS becomes commonly produced. That is, the SHS is never meant to "balance" with DHS, the DHS is not only meant to replace SHS, it's the literal core of the entire post-3039 technical revolution.

It's one of the few cases where there really isn't any way to broadly make the SHS vs. DHS a "sidegrade" issue. DHS are better, period- and have to be or else they end up crippling large parts of the game.

Oh, and for the guy wanting 2-crit DHS? That's the Clan-tech ones that show up later on. IS DHS have that 3-crit drawback.

Just stop fluffing around, PGI and just like SHS are .1 heat per second, all DHS are .2 heat per second- as they not only should be, but have to be unless you feel like jerking one weight class or another around.

[SI The Joker]

First, I eat some crow. In another heat discussion I had thought that it would be a 30% increase by giving external DHS 2.0 over 1.4 as they are now. I was incorrect. When taking into account that the engine DHS are 2.0, the additional few external sinks (even though it's a 30% increase per heatsink) it comes out to be about 15% overall because that 30% number only applies to a few sinks out of the group of them.

EDIT: Thank you to Mr. Blastman and Lefty Lucy for being polite and pointing me to my errors.


Seeing that, at first I said to myself "Wow, they are right... let's try it". So I did.

The problem I'm facing now, is that it doesn't translate into the game in the way one would expect, and the reason is the Pilot Tree.

Cool Run gives 7.5 % + to dissipation. That doubles when you "elite" a mech. That's 15%!!!


So at this point, I'm stuck in a place where I'm not sure what to think. Math needs to work, and with moving to 2.0 being a ~15% increase as has been said numerous times... why is it really required when you already have a 15% boon to heat dissipation via the pilot tree? If PGI did send the DHS to true 2.0, would it not (in the end) equate to be a 30% increase in efficiency not because of the DHS but because of the pilot tree?

Finally, if all of that is true...then in our "elite" mechs, aren't we kind of already seeing the effects of "true" DHS now?

EDIT: That extra 15% also applies to SHS mechs through the pilot tree. Hmmm. Ok, then how about we get a new skill for the pilot tree and give you guys your 2.0 DHS? I'm really thinking it's the pilot tree Cool Run skill that is going to muck everything up.

Edited by SI The Joker, 03 December 2012 - 06:07 AM.

[shabowie]

Roadbuster, on 03 December 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

The current DHS are working fine for me. After all, heat management should be a part of the game.

Working in what sense? A mech like the stock 9m which should be pretty strong is a chronically overheating pile of crap right now.

A stock hunch 4p needs upgraded to DHS or its crap as well.

The heat system is easily the worst feature of the game.

[shabowie]

SI The Joker, on 03 December 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Finally, if all of that is true...then in our elite mechs, aren't we kind of already seeing the effects of "true" DHS now?

Many SHS mechs are unplayable in a way they shouldn't be. Then DHS should be double that.

Mostly our ability to dissipate heat is sorely lacking right now and people are just saying give us universal DHS because its more.

More.


PS I'm not also sure how much the various pilot skills are supposed to give and if they are all working properly. I think some have been shown not to be.

Edited by shabowie, 03 December 2012 - 06:03 AM.

[Gristle]

QuantumButler, on 29 November 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

It's not even a "cheesebuild" honestly, people just like to whine when they can't counter it.

schießen die glas!

[rgreat]

SHS are suck even with current 1.4 DHS.

Still 1.4 DHS are not enough to use high energy weapons.

Make DHS 2.0 and forget about SHS forever. These are suck and have absolutely no advantages to use them.

Only way PGI can insure SHS usage - is to force users to use stock tech-1 mechs.

[Xenois Shalashaska]

Your over heating right. well welcome to the innersphere tech. enjoy and manage your heat

[Chief 117]

Yes, do it ! Double as in DOUBLE, not 1.5 or whatever they are.