Your looking at it all wrong.
You're not "advancing" in the game when you put an XL engine in your Mech.
You are modifying the loadout and every decision you make in this regard must be weighed by pros and cons. Should I mount a large laser or just a medium and more heatsinks?
Sure the XL engine is lighter but it takes up more crit space and also makes your Mech more vulnerable to critical hits.
These aren't advancements. They are tactical decisions. And one of the cons of an expensive Mech is an expensive repair bill.
You can't copy LoL for this type of game. You want every Centurion-D to be exactly the same except for "runes" we equip to modify damage or speed? Cuz that's what LoL is.
2
Follow Lol, Not Wot
Started by Mackman, Nov 29 2012 05:18 PM
42 replies to this topic
#22
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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:46 PM
Daemian, on 29 November 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:
Your looking at it all wrong.
You're not "advancing" in the game when you put an XL engine in your Mech.
You are modifying the loadout and every decision you make in this regard must be weighed by pros and cons. Should I mount a large laser or just a medium and more heatsinks?
Sure the XL engine is lighter but it takes up more crit space and also makes your Mech more vulnerable to critical hits.
These aren't advancements. They are tactical decisions. And one of the cons of an expensive Mech is an expensive repair bill.
You can't copy LoL for this type of game. You want every Centurion-D to be exactly the same except for "runes" we equip to modify damage or speed? Cuz that's what LoL is.
You're not "advancing" in the game when you put an XL engine in your Mech.
You are modifying the loadout and every decision you make in this regard must be weighed by pros and cons. Should I mount a large laser or just a medium and more heatsinks?
Sure the XL engine is lighter but it takes up more crit space and also makes your Mech more vulnerable to critical hits.
These aren't advancements. They are tactical decisions. And one of the cons of an expensive Mech is an expensive repair bill.
You can't copy LoL for this type of game. You want every Centurion-D to be exactly the same except for "runes" we equip to modify damage or speed? Cuz that's what LoL is.
Stock mechs are garbage. That's just a fact. Accumulating mechs and making them better so you can perform better in matches is the point of this game right now. And that's good! I like that.
And I want to be very clear: i don't mind the grind at all. But I want to be able to grind towards my next mech, secure in the knowledge that when I get it, I will be able to customize it and not hurt my forward progress in the game by doing so. My first mech was a commando, and that was fun. My second was a Cicada, and that was fun too.
And then, when I was still young and foolish (about a week and a half ago), I bought a Dragon. Tricked it out with lasers, DHS, ferro-fibrous, then played a couple matches and lost because hey, I'm still a noob. My C-Bills went up by about 15,000.
The hell? I grind for days to get this mech, then more days to outfit it, and it turns out I would have earned WAY MORE C-Bills just dying in my Cicada? That's not ok. That's not something that makes me want to continue playing this game, because it makes me feel like I have wasted my time to an incredible degree.
Will a few people by MC just because it's easier? Sure. But is it worth the newbies that they're driving away in droves thanks to this ridiculously price-gouging system? I doubt it.
LoL has been extremely successful and profitable because the people playing never feel like they have to spend money, nor do they feel like they're wasting their time getting something that isn't even going to help them. MWO is missing that sweet spot by a huge margin, and I will not be surprised when it kills this game. But I will be sad.
Edited by Mackman, 29 November 2012 - 09:46 PM.
#23
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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:02 PM
Recommended items are about as garbage as trial mechs, so lets stop bringing that up. That's about as straight a comparison as can be made between these genres.
I would argue that the point of the game is NOT to advance and get the next best mech, any more than the goal of LoL is to get an Infinity Edge. You spend gold each match in LoL and don't feel bad about it at all. I think C-Bills are not XP, but Gold.
To reiterate: Getting your next Mech is not the goal, but a means to an end.
The XP in the game is in the Pilot, who always advances and gets better at groups of mechs at a time through buying and selling them and training with each. C-Bills are a game resource, not a measure of progress.
I am making this argument because it seems to be the idea PGI is working around. Yes, it's true that halting a player's advance doesn't make any sense. I don't think that's what's happening though, and if you try to wrap your head around why the game is how it is (admittedly strange, but it seems to have a method) this is the result I came to.
I would argue that the point of the game is NOT to advance and get the next best mech, any more than the goal of LoL is to get an Infinity Edge. You spend gold each match in LoL and don't feel bad about it at all. I think C-Bills are not XP, but Gold.
To reiterate: Getting your next Mech is not the goal, but a means to an end.
The XP in the game is in the Pilot, who always advances and gets better at groups of mechs at a time through buying and selling them and training with each. C-Bills are a game resource, not a measure of progress.
I am making this argument because it seems to be the idea PGI is working around. Yes, it's true that halting a player's advance doesn't make any sense. I don't think that's what's happening though, and if you try to wrap your head around why the game is how it is (admittedly strange, but it seems to have a method) this is the result I came to.
Edited by BCOVertigo, 29 November 2012 - 10:08 PM.
#24
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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:03 PM
Dax Frey, on 29 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:
LoL is a completely different game in design and function...as well as genre...
Its pay model wouldn't translate well into MWO.
WoT's pay model, albeit somewhat flawed, is more accurate for this type of game.
It would be like sticking big muddin' tires on a smart car and calling it an off-road vehicle. pretty damn silly.
Its pay model wouldn't translate well into MWO.
WoT's pay model, albeit somewhat flawed, is more accurate for this type of game.
It would be like sticking big muddin' tires on a smart car and calling it an off-road vehicle. pretty damn silly.
Why wouldn't LoL translate? Just because they are different genres is a terrible reason to say that they have to have different pay models. Your analogy about tires doesn't actually explain anything.
Daemian, on 29 November 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:
Your looking at it all wrong.
You're not "advancing" in the game when you put an XL engine in your Mech.
You are modifying the loadout and every decision you make in this regard must be weighed by pros and cons. Should I mount a large laser or just a medium and more heatsinks?
Sure the XL engine is lighter but it takes up more crit space and also makes your Mech more vulnerable to critical hits.
These aren't advancements. They are tactical decisions. And one of the cons of an expensive Mech is an expensive repair bill.
You can't copy LoL for this type of game. You want every Centurion-D to be exactly the same except for "runes" we equip to modify damage or speed? Cuz that's what LoL is.
You're not "advancing" in the game when you put an XL engine in your Mech.
You are modifying the loadout and every decision you make in this regard must be weighed by pros and cons. Should I mount a large laser or just a medium and more heatsinks?
Sure the XL engine is lighter but it takes up more crit space and also makes your Mech more vulnerable to critical hits.
These aren't advancements. They are tactical decisions. And one of the cons of an expensive Mech is an expensive repair bill.
You can't copy LoL for this type of game. You want every Centurion-D to be exactly the same except for "runes" we equip to modify damage or speed? Cuz that's what LoL is.
LoL makes its money off of cosmetic items and early access to champions. Nobody pays for runes, so even if that is what OP is suggesting (he's not) that isn't the point.
#25
Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:15 PM
Zeno Scarborough, on 29 November 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:
Why not follow Dota and give away champions too?
I'm pretty sure DotA2 isn't F2P. I could be wrong, but last time I heard it was going to have an initial cost.
That being said, $10 or $20 in this game isn't going to get you much (maybe 1 mech), whereas it will get you 2-3 champs in LoL.
#26
Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:20 PM
Daemian, on 29 November 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:
Your looking at it all wrong.
You're not "advancing" in the game when you put an XL engine in your Mech.
You are modifying the loadout and every decision you make in this regard must be weighed by pros and cons. Should I mount a large laser or just a medium and more heatsinks?
Sure the XL engine is lighter but it takes up more crit space and also makes your Mech more vulnerable to critical hits.
These aren't advancements. They are tactical decisions. And one of the cons of an expensive Mech is an expensive repair bill.
You can't copy LoL for this type of game. You want every Centurion-D to be exactly the same except for "runes" we equip to modify damage or speed? Cuz that's what LoL is.
You're not "advancing" in the game when you put an XL engine in your Mech.
You are modifying the loadout and every decision you make in this regard must be weighed by pros and cons. Should I mount a large laser or just a medium and more heatsinks?
Sure the XL engine is lighter but it takes up more crit space and also makes your Mech more vulnerable to critical hits.
These aren't advancements. They are tactical decisions. And one of the cons of an expensive Mech is an expensive repair bill.
You can't copy LoL for this type of game. You want every Centurion-D to be exactly the same except for "runes" we equip to modify damage or speed? Cuz that's what LoL is.
I'll point out the obvious parallels you can't see:
-Champs -> Mechs
-Skins -> paint jobs
-Runes -> weapon loadouts, upgrades, experience, etc
The only thing that doesn't directly parallel is the free week champs vs trial mechs. Free week champs are the same as anyone else's whereas trial mechs are trash because of a problematic heat system (and they have suboptimal loadouts a lot of the time).
#27
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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:21 PM
I'm glad to finally see that people other than myself are referencing League of Legends. That game has a perfect business model and doesn't feel unfair to anyone. It didn't take me long to realize why that game was # 1 in playerbase size. Why can't more games, specifically this one, just copy that one? That game did it right and their success and largest playerbase proves it. They're downright showing you how to have a perfect business model and you've mirrored it to a degree... but you're messing it all up. I don't mind the MC-only Mechs as long as they aren't better than other choices. What you REALLY need to fix is the Trial Mechs and the economy.
#28
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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:35 PM
Mackman, on 29 November 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:
And then, when I was still young and foolish (about a week and a half ago), I bought a Dragon. Tricked it out with lasers, DHS, ferro-fibrous, then played a couple matches and lost because hey, I'm still a noob. My C-Bills went up by about 15,000.
The hell? I grind for days to get this mech, then more days to outfit it, and it turns out I would have earned WAY MORE C-Bills just dying in my Cicada? That's not ok. That's not something that makes me want to continue playing this game, because it makes me feel like I have wasted my time to an incredible degree.
Why did you install Ferro Fiberous armor? Not trying to knock on you but it's just about useless while costing 2x as much as regular armor for only weighing 12% less. I have a feeling that's what's really eating up your Cbills for near 0 benefit.
I agree trial mechs are for masochists.
#29
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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:39 PM
Well LoL is imho the best MOBA out there and arguably the most successful but it is a different type of game and it would be hard to translate the model to MWO.
I played WOT too and i must say i hated the advancement model there.
The problem with MWO is that the developers seem to follow some rough plan without any actual attention to detail IMHO. The economy of the game seems to be one of the good examples. There is ALLOT of money sinks in this game and the cost of running a mech increases as you advance but your earning don't. Some money sinks seem incredibly badly thought out like the advancement system forcing you to buy 3 mechs of the same type yet selling a mech even without using it once yields less then 50% of its original price. And you need to buy all the upgrades for all of the 3 chassis.
The advancement system itself is an example of their lack of attention to detail. Both the economy system and advancement are things you need to think out at the early development stage of the game... And as they stand right now they need to be rewriten and redone on the ASAP.
Wots system is a bit similar and tedious as hell. I rather they followed LoLs example.
I played WOT too and i must say i hated the advancement model there.
The problem with MWO is that the developers seem to follow some rough plan without any actual attention to detail IMHO. The economy of the game seems to be one of the good examples. There is ALLOT of money sinks in this game and the cost of running a mech increases as you advance but your earning don't. Some money sinks seem incredibly badly thought out like the advancement system forcing you to buy 3 mechs of the same type yet selling a mech even without using it once yields less then 50% of its original price. And you need to buy all the upgrades for all of the 3 chassis.
The advancement system itself is an example of their lack of attention to detail. Both the economy system and advancement are things you need to think out at the early development stage of the game... And as they stand right now they need to be rewriten and redone on the ASAP.
Wots system is a bit similar and tedious as hell. I rather they followed LoLs example.
#30
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:51 AM
DrBlue62, on 29 November 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:
Why did you install Ferro Fiberous armor? Not trying to knock on you but it's just about useless while costing 2x as much as regular armor for only weighing 12% less. I have a feeling that's what's really eating up your Cbills for near 0 benefit.
I agree trial mechs are for masochists.
I installed it because it seemed like a good idea, and then, when I realized my mistake, I was going to uninstall but oh wait, they want me to pay again for the regular armor? The armor I just took off of my mech? The armor that should be lying around my warehouse?
BCOVertigo, on 29 November 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:
Recommended items are about as garbage as trial mechs, so lets stop bringing that up. That's about as straight a comparison as can be made between these genres.
I would argue that the point of the game is NOT to advance and get the next best mech, any more than the goal of LoL is to get an Infinity Edge. You spend gold each match in LoL and don't feel bad about it at all. I think C-Bills are not XP, but Gold.
To reiterate: Getting your next Mech is not the goal, but a means to an end.
The XP in the game is in the Pilot, who always advances and gets better at groups of mechs at a time through buying and selling them and training with each. C-Bills are a game resource, not a measure of progress.
I am making this argument because it seems to be the idea PGI is working around. Yes, it's true that halting a player's advance doesn't make any sense. I don't think that's what's happening though, and if you try to wrap your head around why the game is how it is (admittedly strange, but it seems to have a method) this is the result I came to.
I would argue that the point of the game is NOT to advance and get the next best mech, any more than the goal of LoL is to get an Infinity Edge. You spend gold each match in LoL and don't feel bad about it at all. I think C-Bills are not XP, but Gold.
To reiterate: Getting your next Mech is not the goal, but a means to an end.
The XP in the game is in the Pilot, who always advances and gets better at groups of mechs at a time through buying and selling them and training with each. C-Bills are a game resource, not a measure of progress.
I am making this argument because it seems to be the idea PGI is working around. Yes, it's true that halting a player's advance doesn't make any sense. I don't think that's what's happening though, and if you try to wrap your head around why the game is how it is (admittedly strange, but it seems to have a method) this is the result I came to.
C-BIlls are NOT gold. Their only parallel in LoL is IP. They are the persistent "meta" cash. To advance, you have to buy mechs and gain pilot XP with them. To advance far enough, you have to buy 3 mech chasis's. To buy those, you need C-Bills, making C-Bills an absolutely vital part of advancement. And yet, counter intuitively, improving your own mechs means you can no longer earn C-Bills as effectively. The most consistent way to earn C-Bills right now would be to run around in the cheapest, crappiest mech you can find, and die.
Can MWO exactly copy LoL's model? Of course not. But the reason LoL is so successful is because of their design philosophy and the "meta-economy" where you feel as though you unlocked something meaningful, something that will help you, every time you buy something. The same can't be said for MWO.
#31
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:58 AM
I posted this in another thread: There is a reason that LoL is the #1 F2P game, and it's not because it's the best game. It's because it has the best business model.
#32
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:04 AM
Tennex, on 29 November 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:
well first of all WoT is P2W lol.
The only thing in WoT that is p2w is gold ammo, and that is being removed.
Edited by Congzilla, 30 November 2012 - 10:04 AM.
#33
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- The Handsome Devil
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:13 AM
tenderloving, on 29 November 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:
Why wouldn't LoL translate? Just because they are different genres is a terrible reason to say that they have to have different pay models. Your analogy about tires doesn't actually explain anything.
Well you didn't explain anything either as to why they would translate.
They would not IMO. The games are completley different.
LoL relies on skins, and a very diverese champion pool. Mechwarrior relies on customization of your mechs.
The skins would not translate. Often at times the skins in LoL will completley change the way your champion looks, which is why they make money with it. Some of them are awesome. Can you imagine a skin for you mech that would completley change it? It would be awful for balance purposes with new hit boxes, not to mention just coding all the movement for it. Essentially it would be adding a new mech to the game, that isn't even a new mech.
LoL's customization comes from playing the game, and buying your items. It will reset each game. When we buy our items, we keep them. Would you like having to get kills with your small lasers to be able to upgrade them to mediums mid fight? No, that sounds awful.
2 completley different games, with different pay structures, that are unique from eachother.
Thats why people make the WoT comparison. The games have a lot more in common.
If MWO was a MOBA, then I would agree with you.
Edited by Roughneck45, 30 November 2012 - 10:18 AM.
#34
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:15 AM
Tennex, on 29 November 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:
well first of all WoT is P2W lol.
Fail post...
#35
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:33 AM
Many online games with an RPG element to them slow progression as you get higher in levels. Usually the first 10-20 levels are gimmies to learn the game, then it slows down as you get into the progression. Then it really gets into the grind as you hit end game and have nothing more to look forward to other than grinding the same content over and over to get better gear.
WoT suffers from basically having the same content at all levels. The game never really changes. So far, since atlases are so easy to get, MWO has the same problem, but people complain they are not productive enough.
Personally, I think there should be a pilot progression that won't let you pilot assault mechs before you master heavy, and mediums before heavy, and lights before medium. That's the way all the single player games went. That's the way it is in Eve online. That's the way it is in WoT. That's the way it is just about everywhere. You have to learn to play with the big boys, not just grind a few days collecting money and then you're in.
Put that model into play, then watch the QQ'ing start.
WoT suffers from basically having the same content at all levels. The game never really changes. So far, since atlases are so easy to get, MWO has the same problem, but people complain they are not productive enough.
Personally, I think there should be a pilot progression that won't let you pilot assault mechs before you master heavy, and mediums before heavy, and lights before medium. That's the way all the single player games went. That's the way it is in Eve online. That's the way it is in WoT. That's the way it is just about everywhere. You have to learn to play with the big boys, not just grind a few days collecting money and then you're in.
Put that model into play, then watch the QQ'ing start.
#36
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:35 AM
Give every new player 10,000CB and let them have at it. That amount can purchase most mechs, if they chose to buy a more modest one, they'll have cash left over to start customizing. End of problem.
#37
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:58 AM
WoT and MWO are much more similiar than LoL and MWO
LoL is a MOBA (stupid term btw) Both WoT and MWO are vehicular slaughter games (I don't think theres a term that describes WoT and MWO quite yet...MMOVSG?)
LoL is a MOBA (stupid term btw) Both WoT and MWO are vehicular slaughter games (I don't think theres a term that describes WoT and MWO quite yet...MMOVSG?)
#38
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:02 AM
Well I quit for a while to play League of Legends and PlanetSide 2.
At the moment I get bored to grind. I could buy some MC and max my Cent with modules etc.
but I see no reason to do an investment, if my play role as support sniper is not supported properly at current state of MWO ...
In my opinion
- kill need to be rewarded better
- assists need to be rewarded better
- spotting need to be rewarded better
- commanding need to be rewarded better (command console required)
- XP gain need to be higher + 50 - 100 % (no MC conversion from MXP)
- then repair costs can stay as they are
At the moment I get bored to grind. I could buy some MC and max my Cent with modules etc.
but I see no reason to do an investment, if my play role as support sniper is not supported properly at current state of MWO ...
In my opinion
- kill need to be rewarded better
- assists need to be rewarded better
- spotting need to be rewarded better
- commanding need to be rewarded better (command console required)
- XP gain need to be higher + 50 - 100 % (no MC conversion from MXP)
- then repair costs can stay as they are
#39
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:03 AM
XenomorphZZ, on 30 November 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:
WoT and MWO are much more similiar than LoL and MWO
LoL is a MOBA (stupid term btw) Both WoT and MWO are vehicular slaughter games (I don't think theres a term that describes WoT and MWO quite yet...MMOVSG?)
LoL is a MOBA (stupid term btw) Both WoT and MWO are vehicular slaughter games (I don't think theres a term that describes WoT and MWO quite yet...MMOVSG?)
I'm not talking at all about similarity of genre. I'm talking about business model and economic philosophy. WoT's (and MWO's) philosophy is to make an unassisted grind so unbelievably long and frustrating that people will be forced to spend money. LoL's philosophy is to largely eliminate that sense of unrewarding grind. As it stands, every match in LoL is much, much more rewarding than a match of MWO.
#40
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:06 AM
you have not played much lol then, it snowballs SO hard... one screw up early game will regularly cost you the entire game, and that one has respawns.
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