225 replies to this topic

[Raidyr]

Teralitha, on 02 December 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

I'm not replying until you learn to use the quote feature right. This is message board 101 here.

[Teralitha]

Vlad Ward, on 01 December 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Look. It would not be overly difficult for someone who cared enough to design a program that would automatically run your mech towards the enemy and spam alpha strikes at them with an aimbot.

Sorry, its just an easy way to address each point in a quote.

Let assume that this did happen, someone made a program with an aimbot, and charged in to fire off a few shots before dying.

Under the current system this player would recieve (at minimum) 75000 cbills + damage x10 probably 1 spot for 2000, damage for about 200 x10 = 2000 and we will assume they turned off auto repair/re-arm also so they keep all those cbills, as that actually is part of the exploit. That means they brought in 79000 cbils, aprox, as a lower end estimate.

Under my system this player would recieve damage x10 and probably 1 spot for 2000, at best. Lets assume they did 200 damage before dying in their suicidal charge... thats 4000.

If their team happened to win, they would get the salvage too(unfortunately)in either system.

This scenario "assumes" that someone has a very good cheat program with aimbot.

Your regular suicider would get zero as they usually run to the nearest border to die as fast as possible.

Under my system these players either get nothing, (or very little for the extreme case)

While regular players suffer no loss of their usual income.

[Vlad Ward]

The amount of money you make with a macro is irrelevant because they have all the time in the world.

They could leave a computer on running MWO and farming every single day 9-5 while they're at work. It really does not matter. They are still making free money.

On the other hand, you're crippling new players who would have no real opportunity to get into a better Mech and improve themselves while making peanuts each match.

You just said your new system "Hurts nobody", but I'm telling you right now it hurts just about every new player the game will ever see. It's just not good.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 02 December 2012 - 12:48 AM.

[Teralitha]

Vlad Ward, on 02 December 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

On the other hand, you're crippling new players who would have no real opportunity to get into a better Mech and improve themselves while making peanuts each match.

You just said your new system "Hurts nobody", but I'm telling you right now it hurts just about every new player the game will ever see. It's just not good.

You keep saying that new players will be hurt, but if thats true, then they are hurting now, since the current system is nearly the same. I believe I have seen quite a few post from free players here who claim that the grind is not a problem for them at all.

You say my system would cripple new players. You would have to explain in detail how that is, because I simply dont see it(by the numbers)

But first, I will explain how my system is actually better for new players...

In the current system, newbies have a potential of going negative cbills.
In my system, they do not lose cbills... ever. they only gain.

Tell me how this cripples newbies.

[Vlad Ward]

New players are running trial mechs. They're not running negative c-bills. They're getting a minimum of 60,000 c-bills every single match. Mechs cost millions of c-bills.

There is no way in hell a new player in a trial mech is going to earn anywhere near 60,000 c-bills in your system, even if they got Salvage.

What you don't seem to understand is, as far as the game mechanics are concerned, farmers and new players are practically identical.

[Krivvan]

The new players you're talking about hit 1-60 damage in a game. Even without trial mechs. If you base everything on performance then those players will get nothing. If they're using custom mechs then they'll even lose cbills every game.

[Particle Man]

Vlad Ward, on 01 December 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

100 points of forward armor doesn't mean much when single mechs can hit 50-damage salvos to the same location.

and that's where torso twisting and good piloting comes into play. So i suppose your original point about a standing still atlas is useless is technically correct. But my scenario is actually the point of having all of that extra armor. I also think that lrm boat atlases are a waste, because they are wasting their armor and role by doing what a catapult can do, except not as well.

[Teralitha]

Vlad Ward, on 02 December 2012 - 01:36 AM, said:

New players are running trial mechs. They're not running negative c-bills. They're getting a minimum of 60,000 c-bills every single match. Mechs cost millions of c-bills.

There is no way in hell a new player in a trial mech is going to earn anywhere near 60,000 c-bills in your system, even if they got Salvage.

What you don't seem to understand is, as far as the game mechanics are concerned, farmers and new players are practically identical.

Damnit it all to hell... I forgot that trial mechs dont repair/rearm.... and get reduced cbills.. Ill think of something,...

Perhaps if trial mechs just get the full rewards like everyone else then. Any more then that and it would create an exploitable situation. This way they will get the salvage reward like everyone on the team. It will mean they get carried a little , but I dont mind. The grind shouldnt be any worse than before this way.

Thoughts?

Yea the problem here is... I could increase the salvage rewards a little more, but then the custom players might be making too much. I dont want to make any rewards that give something for nothing. The new players are just gonna have to grind it out, and learn how to perform better. Its not like we are dealing with coma patients here... To make anything better for the new player experience, its up to PGI to make something more for them, otherwise I think my system will suffice until they do.

And the best part is... no more exploiter/griefers.

Edited by Teralitha, 02 December 2012 - 02:25 AM.

[Krivvan]

Ok, Teralitha's method would hurt suiciders and AFKers, but it also hurts newbie players. Like I said before, many newbie players only get 1-60 damage done in a game. Some people will even confuse them for AFK bots because of how bad their performance is. Under the old system they still do get some reward for just participating, but their income would drop to 100-8000 cbills a game under Teralitha's system.

Additionally, Teralitha's system puts focus on doing damage rather than winning the game. Players will focus on doing the most total damage to enemies rather than actually winning since their rewards are much more influenced by total damage numbers.

Edited by Krivvan, 02 December 2012 - 02:19 AM.

[Teralitha]

Krivvan, on 02 December 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Additionally, Teralitha's system puts focus on doing damage rather than winning the game. Players will focus on doing the most total damage to enemies rather than actually winning since their rewards are much more influenced by total damage numbers.

Actually no, all values are the same as current with the exception of +0.5% for salvage, which only gets higher by doing less damage, and winning. IE- a kill by headshot gives you the biggest salvage reward possible. I think the balance between rewards is otherwise pretty good.

Damage rewards you for doing more damage
But salvage rewards you for doing less damage

Ultimately, salvage gives you more(alot more) than doing more damage, so that will be the goal for the more veteran players.

Edited by Teralitha, 02 December 2012 - 02:37 AM.

[Krivvan]

Teralitha, on 02 December 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

Actually no, all values are the same as current with the exception of +0.5% for salvage, which only gets higher by doing less damage, and winning.

Salvage only occurs when an enemy mech dies. People tend to not aim for the purpose of getting salvage, newbies especially.

Edited by Krivvan, 02 December 2012 - 02:33 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Raidyr, on 02 December 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

People were just running at enemies/cap zones and firing weapons until dying to make money, it's just that as time has passed human beings have put their ingenuity to work in order to automate an otherwise tedious task.

The question then is not "How can we stop people doing this", it is "Why are people doing this"

sheer laziness, i only play an hour so a day and within a couply of weeks i own 3 expensive assaults and heading for the elite unlockables fast. really most people here want it all now now now. that's why we have all these kinds of threads, cause we don't like working for our rewards. many who have put in some real gaming hours are playing with moduels now, so if you're suggesting that the grind is too hard, then those people {not you specifically} proberbly don't have the patience for this kind of game anyways.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 02 December 2012 - 02:36 AM.

[Teralitha]

GalaxyBluestar, on 02 December 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

sheer laziness, i only play an hour so a day and within a couply of weeks i own 3 expensive assaults and heading for the elite unlockables fast. really most people here want it all now now now. that's why we have all these kinds of threads, cause we don't like working for our rewards. many who have put in some real gaming hours are playing with moduels now, so if you're suggesting that the grind is too hard, then those people {not you specifically} proberbly don't have the patience for this kind of game anyways.

And you dont even have premium or founders bonus. 1 hr a day for 2 weeks and you own 3 assault mechs. Thats pretty fast actually. That just tells me that with my system, the newbie grind will be just fine.

It only took me a couple days of grinding(with premium and founders) to get master on 3 atlas varients.. Well... I didnt have to buy one of the varients though(founders atlas)

New players are currently getting free cbills for doing nothing, that is at the very heart of the exploitation. Time to make them work for it.

You know what, we are still in beta, whats it gonna hurt to test this system?

Edited by Teralitha, 02 December 2012 - 02:54 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

sorry if it sounded like bragging and i have to admit to the extra hour here and there for a little more than a couple of weeks, actually it's around a month but that's still nothing. You just have to balance your match options. really i'm surprised myself how fast you can get a good mech hanger going with really top machines. i started in oct 27. honestly if rpgs which have to be played for many hours a day in a month to get a fraction of stuff is respectable amongst gamers how our we whinging about a fortnight or so of leasure and we can already have 3 mechs in the garage easily? well here's how:

C-bills - go with trials as it's far more reliable to stack up 60-90K profit rather than risking 130K profit or neg 20-50k if you lose and lose bad. most likely you will lose so forgo the repairs and try to really get involved in the match, spotting bonus, componant damage bonus and cap are your friends. yes i've also taken the salvage into account when using your own mech, if you have expensive gear like ff armour big expensive weapons and a lot of ammo based stuff you're going to find that losing arms and torso's can lead into 110K repairs, not good when you earn 70K so for your efforts.

so now that you have brought the gear you want and buffeted your cbills by 2mil for safe keepings just go for the xp and the money will be a lot slower but it should look after itself. now that you've put in practice with an array of different machines and equipment along with good understanding of heat gen thanks to the trials being overloaded set ups you should be able to manage your own mech well.

so do some grind for cash and gaming experience and then you can make an informed decision on what mech and load out suits your fighting style {or like me your lag style} then you can roll into town with your own mech without the finnancial worries. and your mech will only get better with the unlockables! my 3 awesomes are almost all filled out on basic and i have enough xp to do half an elite on one. as you say this is with NO FOUNDERS BONUS. you may think i'm a stooge for not paying anything but my testing is to proove the free player can get into this game and do well against the rich kids!

so stay informed by reading what you can about the items, practice with trials till you're comfortable and when you've brought the 3 varients you want go for GOLD!

happy hunting!

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 02 December 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I'm still wondering if Piranha has yet to see this or just doesn't care at all about the messed up economy they created.

[endeceive]

Krivvan, on 02 December 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Additionally, Teralitha's system puts focus on doing damage rather than winning the game. Players will focus on doing the most total damage to enemies rather than actually winning since their rewards are much more influenced by total damage numbers.

You could say that a win means you get a x2 multiplier to your income and XP? That would put a huge focus back on winning, while still leaving AFK/disconnect people with nothing.

There may be some way to balance so that new people aren't completely shafted as well... can't think what that is right now. Something similar to the spotting bonuses?

[Kaijin]

My idea.

Randomly generated 3 digit number keyed to each match, displayed on screen during the countdown. Graphical representation of it could be in the cockpit in the form of a number pad. Using the number pad on the keyboard, players would enter the 3 digit number. Consider it the startup sequence. Mechs that are not started get nothing.

[Chrithu]

GalaxyBluestar, on 01 December 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

remember the motivation for the exploiters and even the race cappers is they'd prefer the rewards for doing those matches which they can do about 2 or 3 times next to the full 15 min fight. factor the battle lengths and you can see how it's attractive to race and put no effort into many matches in the same timespan as a few good fights. so yes the boundries and reward system is the focus.

That is actually a pretty good point. Though I personally wouldn't dismiss race capping as something that rather should not happen. It is legitimately playing the given scenario. It isn't TDM it is Base Capture. Hence in my proposed changes there are changes included that lead to capping and killing the enemy team as whole basically netting you the same reward. In my book a team that fails to defend it's base fails at the game. But that's a whole different story.

It indeed is important to keep in mind that the main reason for botfarming is the desire to make more CBills over time, the second reason is to make CBills without having to be at the PC. That's why it is important to adjust the reward structure so that suiciding (whatever way you do it) and AFKing doesn't give you any reward at all.

Why not simply add checks for both behaviours? Because in my view the reward system needs a rework anyways as it treats different weightclasses very differently and is currently encouraging to be mainly out for the kills and keep out of danger of being damaged. That must in my view be changed by broadening out the performance rewards so that more actions that help your team are covered and at the same time make them worthwhile and the main source of income. The ideal result would be that everyone wants to help their teammates. And while they are at it with the reward system changes they might aswell go ahead and fix the loopholes abused by the farmers.

Edited by Jason Parker, 03 December 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[Imagine Dragons]

Whats the point of playing the game if you're not going to play the game?

[Chrithu]

XenomorphZZ, on 03 December 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Whats the point of playing the game if you're not going to play the game?

Obviously there is a point to this for some twisted persons otherwise that behaviour wasn't as numerous as it currently is.

Experience tought me that you can NOT fight cheating and hacking with reason. Instead you fix the loopholes in the system that are being abused and until it's fixed punish anyone that abuses them. The punishments are announced now we have to wait and see how they plan to fix the problem.