100 replies to this topic

[Volume]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

To be clear, popular ideas were: Faster PPC projectile; shorter bean duration for LL/ERLL; much less heat on PPC.

ERLL would need less heat as well...

[Elizander]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

The idea of decreasing LL/ERLL beam duration is to make them better ranged 'sniping' weapons than they are. That said the LL is pretty damn close to where (I'd) want it.

I'll agree here. the LL is pretty good right now. I don't think it needs to be changed. It's a very nice baseline weapon that can be used in brawls and long-range combat along with having manageable heat.

[AoiNeko]

Volume, on 01 December 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

ERLL would need less heat as well...

ER LL is fine with its heat since it's a sniping laser weapon and requires one to watch his/her heat level from afar.
Definitely not a suitable weapon for brawling but if one like the weapon regardless of the heat, why not?

[SpiralRazor]

AoiNeko, on 01 December 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

ER LL is fine with its heat since it's a sniping laser weapon and requires one to watch his/her heat level from afar.
Definitely not a suitable weapon for brawling but if one like the weapon regardless of the heat, why not?

Can only assume you arent experienced enough to make an informed comment.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

To be clear, popular ideas were: Faster PPC projectile; shorter bean duration for LL/ERLL; much less heat on PPC.

Perhapse a .5 or 1 damage boost on PPC's also Garth?

Though lower heat and faster speed WOULD help the weapon quite a bit.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Vlad Ward, on 30 November 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Have you guys thought about having the artists take another pass at the PPC and bringing back MW2's blue spheres of death?

Lobbing some of those around with a Gauss slug's projectile speed will certainly increase the PPC's usage through sheer aesthetic appeal.

OMG NO!! Those were horrendous!!

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 02 December 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

OMG NO!! Those were horrendous!!

Quote for truth.

[LaserAngel]

I'm coming to the realization that these high heat weapons involve a big mess since something like the PPC is balanced against the AC/10 and it has the benefit of infinite ammo but given the heat and tonnage you're going to treat it as a peak DPS weapon and not something you fire every time you can. Exacerbated further with the x3 speed firing times and x1 heat system.

You are supposed to have backup weapons when carrying sometime like the PPC. The Awesome 8Q gets by with a Small Laser to scare off anything within 90m. The problem is fights tumble into knife fighting 50-100m quickly and all too often since you become accustomed to just keeping the throttle at full and just closing in.

As I've mentioned before and as shown by others, you need to keep at range, fire these weapons seldom given their heat, and carry a backup.

[MustrumRidcully]

LaserAngel, on 02 December 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

As I've mentioned before and as shown by others, you need to keep at range, fire these weapons seldom given their heat, and carry a backup.

The problem witht his approach is that it's not necessarily the best thing to build your mech for. What if you don't take a weapon that requires a back-up? Suddenly, your tonnage is used differently, and quite possibly much more efficiently. And if you "do the math" or experiment with builds, you will realize that this is exactly what is happening. It's inefficient to use PPCs or ER PPCs.

And the reason the Awesome is carrying a small laser is not because it's PPCs need to cool off. It's because they have a minimum range.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 03 December 2012 - 12:52 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

ManDaisy, on 01 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

I dunno, I'm sorta worried about changing the beam duration of the LL/ER LL because it obsoletes the large pulse laser. Also, it makes this game closer and closer to twitch style fighting. The Hold on damage is the only thing keeping lasers from being supreme. Instant damage lasers are somethig that should be avoided.

Reduce the burn time of the LPL also then?

[AoiNeko]

SpiralRazor, on 01 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Can only assume you arent experienced enough to make an informed comment.

Also, I assume you're talking about Assault class that uses ER LL and tanking damage while cooling down in a brawl.
Try ER LL in lights and mediums and tell me how efficient it is.

[LaserAngel]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 December 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

The problem witht his approach is that it's not necessarily the best thing to build your mech for. What if you don't take a weapon that requires a back-up? Suddenly, your tonnage is used differently, and quite possibly much more efficiently. And if you "do the math" or experiment with builds, you will realize that this is exactly what is happening. It's inefficient to use PPCs or ER PPCs.

And the reason the Awesome is carrying a small laser is not because it's PPCs need to cool off. It's because they have a minimum range.

True, you devote a lot of tonnage to these weapons and the Awesome is literally built around them. Keep in mind I mentioned the 8Q's Small Laser for ranges within 90m.

I agree that it's inefficient to run a PPC build and the Laser Laser Awesome is much more viable but I just ran into an actual good PPC Awesome player! Sure there were heat problems but they knew how to play fire support and stay back. The PPC is just a weapon that has a lot of downsides compounded into a single weapon plus a mech that boats them. I'm not going to say "Learn to Play". It is a weapon that needs to be looked at.

[buckX]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

The idea of decreasing LL/ERLL beam duration is to make them better ranged 'sniping' weapons than they are. That said the LL is pretty damn close to where (I'd) want it.

Totally agree with the PPC assessment. Faster projectile + Less Heat is what they need. I still don't feel like PPCs need their minimum range, and I hope that is something y'all are discussing.

In terms of beam duration, I actually have no issue with the current 1s. I like LL a lot, though the one notable disadvantage is they have pretty low dps/ton. Dropping beam duration would help with that, but I also wouldn't mind seeing the cycle go from 3.25 to 3. As others have mentioned, the beam does risk completely outmoding the LPL. If you took the LL as currently implemented and dropped the beam to .75, then the LPL would be paying 2 tons and 2 heat to gain 1 damage and lose a third of its range, which is just awful.

It also strikes me as odd that then mediums would be the longest beam duration of all lasers. I think you'd agree that situation could only arise from incremental tweaks, and isn't something that would ever show up in a first conception of what "feels right". That said, if you wanted to make all lasers .75 and all pulse lasers .5, that could be a pretty workable system. Granted, mediums aren't exactly bad at present, but people still take smalls when they get the opportunity, which certainly doesn't model how the BT universe looks.

Edited by buckX, 03 December 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[CodeNameValtus]

verybad, on 01 December 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

The EMP effect should also have a chance at rebooting some delicate systems.

For example Hit an ECM or BAP carrying mech with one PPC 5% chance of rebooting the ECM per PPC hit. 10% if that hit is inside armor (critical) Perhaps a chance at breaking missile locks or communication with other members of that team.

Make the PPCs a great weapon like htey used to be. They look good already, now make 'em nasty. Giving them a bit of an anti ECM capability would make them unique, and very cool.

You realize that ECM is a proximity thing, and it's 200m bubble around the mech that has it? So really disrupting it at range doesn't do much, as it would need to disrupt it long enough for an LRM lock on, travel time and impact. This is too long of a duration. Most ECM capable mechs are quick moving. As such, they'll be on top of the PPC user with haste. And consequently PPC's do less damage at close range.

So let's see, disrupt a system that needs to be close to you, with a weapon that doesn't provide full damage on targets close to you. Seems like a logic fail. I don't want even more encouragement for new players to fire PPCS/LRMs within their minimum effective ranges.

[HRR Insanity]

Another thought....

Leave PPCs alone in terms of heat/damage, but have them disable ECM on hit for 3-5 seconds.

Fun meta-game tweak that makes the PPC high risk (in terms of heat/damage) yet VERY useful.

[SteelPaladin]

buckX, on 03 December 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

Totally agree with the PPC assessment. Faster projectile + Less Heat is what they need. I still don't feel like PPCs need their minimum range, and I hope that is something y'all are discussing.

In terms of beam duration, I actually have no issue with the current 1s. I like LL a lot, though the one notable disadvantage is they have pretty low dps/ton. Dropping beam duration would help with that, but I also wouldn't mind seeing the cycle go from 3.25 to 3. As others have mentioned, the beam does risk completely outmoding the LPL. If you took the LL as currently implemented and dropped the beam to .75, then the LPL would be paying 2 tons and 2 heat to gain 1 damage and lose a third of its range, which is just awful.

It also strikes me as odd that then mediums would be the longest beam duration of all lasers. I think you'd agree that situation could only arise from incremental tweaks, and isn't something that would ever show up in a first conception of what "feels right". That said, if you wanted to make all lasers .75 and all pulse lasers .5, that could be a pretty workable system. Granted, mediums aren't exactly bad at present, but people still take smalls when they get the opportunity, which certainly doesn't model how the BT universe looks.

In the beginning (when LLs had a 1.25s burn), we were saying PGI should have inverted the beam durations for lasers and given the 0.75 duration to LLs while pushing SLs up to 1.25. That way, the clusters of small lasers would have a harder time concentrating damage (supposed to be a disadvantage of using lots of little guns) and the big lasers would have an easier time keeping all their damage in one spot (supposed to be an advantage of using big guns). They ended up pulling LLs down a little bit but never touched SLs.

I don't think they need to be keeping LLs at the same duration as ER LLs, though (or PPCs at the same speed as ER PPCs). Duration/speed are accuracy in this game, and ER weapons are supposed to be more accurate than their standard counterparts. Range isn't the only reason they're so much hotter.

[Icebound]

Supposedly new maps are only going to get larger from here, so maybe they will be useful at some point.

[Timelordwho]

buckX, on 03 December 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

Totally agree with the PPC assessment. Faster projectile + Less Heat is what they need. I still don't feel like PPCs need their minimum range, and I hope that is something y'all are discussing.

In terms of beam duration, I actually have no issue with the current 1s. I like LL a lot, though the one notable disadvantage is they have pretty low dps/ton. Dropping beam duration would help with that, but I also wouldn't mind seeing the cycle go from 3.25 to 3. As others have mentioned, the beam does risk completely outmoding the LPL. If you took the LL as currently implemented and dropped the beam to .75, then the LPL would be paying 2 tons and 2 heat to gain 1 damage and lose a third of its range, which is just awful.

It also strikes me as odd that then mediums would be the longest beam duration of all lasers. I think you'd agree that situation could only arise from incremental tweaks, and isn't something that would ever show up in a first conception of what "feels right". That said, if you wanted to make all lasers .75 and all pulse lasers .5, that could be a pretty workable system. Granted, mediums aren't exactly bad at present, but people still take smalls when they get the opportunity, which certainly doesn't model how the BT universe looks.

Mediums are "efficiency" oriented lasers, build for close/midrange brawls. They have low heat per damage, low tonnage per damage, and have enough range to hit nearby targets. That efficiency has a cost, where you have a lower powered laser held on for longer. They are very efficient, and have design tradeoffs in order to get this.

[Jyaksus]

Kobold, on 30 November 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

The "not TT!" crowd has the underlying problem that we're already using large chunks of TT (notably the weight and tonnage), but not the other balancing factors. Often the suggested fixes to things (see discussions about gauss, streaks, LRMs, ECM) involve deviating even MORE from TT, when I'd argue that the best fixes involve going back.

I think you make an excellent point, especially in regards to the PPC. Give it a nearly instant projectile, and suddenly it becomes a scary sniper weapon because it is easy to hit targets with, which might make up for its heat issues.

I really like where you're going.

Agreed.

The biggest frustration I have with a PPC as a 'main cannon' in many builds, is that you have to chug your misses because each shot is so important. Even a few shots off target waste an amazing amount of heat, and so the weapon feels clunky, and even when it does hit, the boom isn't very impressive.

My personal take on the situation is that you can fine tune both factors towards each other to compromise the issue.

My first exposure to battletech was on early PC computers, and one of the main advantages of the PPC was that it was the only energy weapon that did 'splash' damage. The modern way of thinking is that when it hits, it should explode.

Anything passing through the explosion takes damage, if you catch multiple parts in the cloud, they all suffer damage, but direct hits still hit a little harder. I'd say the cloud would deal 50% of the damage, but still incur all EMP effects when they become implemented.

This way, near misses on mobile lights at medium range, or really close targeting on certain appendages, still have some payoff. This way, projectile speed still requires a steady aim, and yet misses aren't punished so badly, a collection of good shots could rip legs off of lights to slow them down for pot shots.

It also revalues it, making it not only an energy weapon that can simulate an AC, but also potentially simulate missiles.

[Havyek]

Hm. . . I must be the only person playing this game (and reading the forums) that can hit targets with PPCs, and can manage the heat of ER weapons.

Some of my favourite builds right now are a CTF2X with Gauss/ERPPC for sniping, an Ilya Muromets with GR and 2 ERPPCs, K2 with 4 ERLLAS.

ER weapons are meant for SNIPING. Which means range. Which means shoot, wait, shoot again.

As I've said again and again and again and again and again to all people who want to whine about the heat system, just because your weapon has recycled, doesn't mean you need to fire it.

To also note, the majority of my builds hover between the 0.9 - 1.2 range for heat efficiency.