38 replies to this topic

[LaserAngel]

Aegis Kleais, on 01 December 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

I have a 4x Large Laser CTF-3D at the moment. And I'm not sure if this is partly due to the hitbox registration, but I'd like to see a 5-10% boost in their damage.

The range differences isn't really that big compared to the mediums for the amount of heat and weight they have, but no more than that;

There is one thing you must learn when you start carrying long range energy weapons, YOU need to stay at range too. My first mech after my Founder's Catapult was the Camelback 4SP with 4 SL, 1 ML, x2 SRM 6. It is a knife fighting, brawler in the 100-200m range.

I then started working on the Awesome lineup and build those around the Large Laser. I would first charge into battle but then I learned to keep my distance. If you're beyond 300-400m, your Large Lasers are working at FULL effectiveness. You need to stay at that range as long as possible during an encounter. I've had people fire their Small/Medium Lasers or even SRMs only to laugh those peashooters off or watch the missiles detonate before reaching me.

The stock Awesomes suffer from the 290 engine cap so keeping engagement range is more difficult. The Cataphract and Awesome 9M can muster a reasonable pace.

Nonetheless, I can understand there will be times when you need to get within 270m of your target. (My 9M has x3 Streak 2s for scouts) Situations change or you get caught and are just unlucky.

[Aegis Kleais]

LaserAngel, on 01 December 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

There is one thing you must learn when you start carrying long range energy weapons, YOU need to stay at range too. My first mech after my Founder's Catapult was the Camelback 4SP with 4 SL, 1 ML, x2 SRM 6. It is a knife fighting, brawler in the 100-200m range.

I then started working on the Awesome lineup and build those around the Large Laser. I would first charge into battle but then I learned to keep my distance. If you're beyond 300-400m, your Large Lasers are working at FULL effectiveness. You need to stay at that range as long as possible during an encounter. I've had people fire their Small/Medium Lasers or even SRMs only to laugh those peashooters off or watch the missiles detonate before reaching me.

The stock Awesomes suffer from the 290 engine cap so keeping engagement range is more difficult. The Cataphract and Awesome 9M can muster a reasonable pace.

Nonetheless, I can understand there will be times when you need to get within 270m of your target. (My 9M has x3 Streak 2s for scouts) Situations change or you get caught and are just unlucky.

You're preaching to the choir, brother.

To be optimal with the config, you cannot rush in with it; it is not designed for brawling. You stay at maximum effective range and start shooting at what you can scalpel off first and foremost. This is most effective on enemies who are fixated on other targets. With 2x LL in my arms, I can JJ up to areas and skull cap on those as long as I'm not making myself a visible target to others.

[LordBraxton]

WolvesX, on 01 December 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

Hails to all fellow Mechwarriors!

I recently bought a AWE-8Q, in the beginning, I got big heat problems with it despite fielding 21 DHS.

Loadout: 2 ER PPC, 5 ML.

---

Now I'm running it with 20 DHS and 2 ERLL, 2 LL, 3 SL and its working a bit better, but the heat gererated by those weapons on a AM or a HM is just too great imo and its hard to counter.

In my HBK-4G I had 2 LPL and 1 MPL and 18 DHS and the heat is much more controllable, in fact, my tons / DPS / speed ratio is far higher.

10 games with AWE-8Q avg. DMG 340.
10 games with HBK-4G avg. DMG 572.

Reason: Higher speed means more hits on target. Less weapons result in a higher oberall DPS, because you can't compensate high heat weapons on a AS or HV through DHS because of limeted CRTS.

Conclusion: Mediums are better for EN WPNs than AS or HV.

Opinions? Thoughts?

Would be nice to read your opinion on this.

Wolves, StarCaptain of Clan Coyote (DE)

(Sorry for mistakes - I'm a native german)

I'm an AWS fiend! I love em!

Sadly The only use I have found for the 'Original' Awesome is a medium laser\mpl boat :<

Try 1 Large with the rest mediums+ biggest standard engine you can fit + DHS

Try the Awesome with the missile rack on one side. You can make a sick 3 LL 3SRM6 build on that one.

If your cbills stack high enough, the 9m is truly the real 'Awesome' right now.

[LaserAngel]

LordBraxton, on 01 December 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

I'm an AWS fiend! I love em!

Sadly The only use I have found for the 'Original' Awesome is a medium laser\mpl boat :<

Try 1 Large with the rest mediums+ biggest standard engine you can fit + DHS

Try the Awesome with the missile rack on one side. You can make a sick 3 LL 3SRM6 build on that one.

If your cbills stack high enough, the 9m is truly the real 'Awesome' right now.

I have a certain fondness for the Awesome 8V. You get 3 missile torso hard points and 2 energy torso hard points. You can slap in x3 SRM 6s for a deadly close range punch and the spread on them is better than most launchers. You still have to treat them a lot like a ballistic weapon.

After that you can place 2 Large Lasers in the torso. You don't have to worry about convergence issues. They're both in the torso and from the same location. Just make sure your shot isn't blocked.

Finally for backup I'd have 2 Medium Lasers. One in the head and one in the right arm. Even after AMS + ammo, SRM ammo, and a 280/290 standard engine you'll have space and tonnage left over for a BAP. You never touch Endo Steel or XL engine unless it's the Awesome 9M.

[Sirfeazell]

i run an AWS-9M awesome myself. 4 LL 20DHS on it with an XL380. i run max armor on it as well with FF. It has 1.27 HE on it and as long as you cycle your laser shots it you wont overheat on it till about 3 or 4 full cycles. if i dont get just destroyed outright in the match i tend to do about 400~700dmg a match on average with 1~3 kills and usually lots of assists. Energy mechs are plasable but you have to theaorycraft the hell out of them and their expensive as hell. This mech i dont run often because im not using my premium time and if my team loses which with pugs is about 75% of the time no matter how well i do i lose about 30k c-bill so i rarely run it anymore despite that its my favorite mech build so far.

[MustrumRidcully]

Vapor Trail, on 01 December 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

And since the engine limits went in... the 7MPL Awebomination has (thankfully) died off.

Apparently it takes a bit more to kill a Swayback... but they're supposed to be there.

Swaybacks work with medium Lasers and Double Heat Sinks. Admittedly, I am running only 7, not 8 mediums, but it works well.

[Stradivarious]

While I do agree that they are heat monsters, they are supposed to be that way. Calling it now, those saying(including in this thread) that energy weapons are underpowered are going to be screaming that they're OP once adjusted....

Right now, with dual ER PPCs and a Gauss as the primary weapons on my founder's Atlas(I've got a Marauder fetish, sorry) and 19 DHS, every...single...match... I am at the top of the board damage and score wise, usually in kills as well. The only time you won't see me there is if I get singled out early because I did something ********.

It all comes down to heat management, knowing when you should and should not shutdown and how to back off under cover to cooldown. Make them easier to use, and you will be overwhelmed in short order by all the FTM kiddies.

[Stradivarious]

Just as a re-enforcement for what I said in my above post, this is a screenshot of the above listed founder's Atlas config, basically a Marauder II.

End result of the first match I had when I got home from work this afternoon, I was pugging at the time, can't speak for the rest of my team or the other.



So much for "UP" weapons, and you ninnies want them buffed.

[LaserAngel]

Stradivarious what would you believe your engagement range is in your Atlas build?

[Vlad Ward]

1100 damage with triple sniper weapons?

I wouldn't show off a screenshot of you missing the kill zones over and over and over and over and over.... and over.

[Noodlesoup]

i love energy weapons, and they work great for me as-is. adding emp effect to ppcs would be frosting. the weapons are effective if used properly today.

and i wish everyone would stop asking "why can't i alpha non-stop".

battletech was never about using ALL of your weapons ALL of the time. it was having a spread of weapons appropriate for different engagement ranges and using them effectively and efficiently.

[Stradivarious]

Vlad Ward, on 01 December 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

1100 damage with triple sniper weapons?

I wouldn't show off a screenshot of you missing the kill zones over and over and over and over and over.... and over.

Take a little closer look and notice the critical damage red light. I was brawling. Forest colony normal map, entire fight was in the back hills, where snipers can't reach. Think I got maybe 3 or 4 sniper volleys off before I had to move in or sit there with my thumb up my ***.

Also take note of the wording in the post instead of trying to sound like an ***, that screenshot wasn't bragging, that was saying see what I do now? It will do MUCH more if you keep pushing to get them buffed, and also that was far from my best match, I'm part of what my corp likes to call the crazy 8's. Killed the entire enemy team with witnesses. I shouldn't be able to do that imo. Best I've ever done iirc was 1632 but that was back in CB with the same weapons but 30 single heat sinks, I don't believe it's possible to do that much with my current config anymore.

LaserAngel, on 01 December 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Stradivarious what would you believe your engagement range is in your Atlas build?

I prefer long range but it's not always possible like in that match. As far as how far can I shoot? If I can see it, I can hit it. Thermal vision is your friend. You start taking damage reductions on the PPC after 1000 iirc, but still do enough damage to force other snipers to keep their heads down or lose them. You'll always know you're facing me on forest colony, I hit thermal as I come out of my base and shoot the mechs coming out of the enemy base, so literally bolts of lightning out of nowhere.

Edited by Stradivarious, 01 December 2012 - 04:39 PM.

[Tempered]

As I see it, there is a problem with the balance of ballistics vs energy. There is not much reason to carry energy weapons if you can carry ballistics instead. The problem is that ballistics are suppose to have the disadvantage of limited ammo, but in practice the matches are too short for this to be a serious concern. Energy weapons become used only by those that can't mount ballistics, can't aim with ballistics, or just don't know any better.

[LaserAngel]

Stradivarious, on 01 December 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

I prefer long range but it's not always possible like in that match. As far as how far can I shoot? If I can see it, I can hit it. Thermal vision is your friend. You start taking damage reductions on the PPC after 1000 iirc, but still do enough damage to force other snipers to keep their heads down or lose them.

I too am using thermal vision and staying at maximum range. You get more range from the ER Large Laser and ER PPC compared to my Large Lasers though. On another mechs I can usually stay in the fight with two ER PPC and 20 DHS. It's just getting those shots to hit with how ballistics work at close range.

[FerretGR]

I'm also a fan of the 7ML 8Q. It's a bit slow, but you play it smart and it's a killer.

These days I'm running a fun 9M build:
XL385
5 ML (torso etc)
1 LL (right arm)
1 SRM4 (left arm, 1 ton ammo)
AMS (1 ton ammo)
23 DHS

Pretty fast, pretty scary! Might meet your needs, OP. Watch your heat, don't constantly alpha. I have my MLs on group 1, LL on 2, and SRMs on 3 to keep the fire under control.

[Vlad Ward]

Stradivarious, on 01 December 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Take a little closer look and notice the critical damage red light. I was brawling. Forest colony normal map, entire fight was in the back hills, where snipers can't reach. Think I got maybe 3 or 4 sniper volleys off before I had to move in or sit there with my thumb up my ***.

Also take note of the wording in the post instead of trying to sound like an ***, that screenshot wasn't bragging, that was saying see what I do now? It will do MUCH more if you keep pushing to get them buffed, and also that was far from my best match, I'm part of what my corp likes to call the crazy 8's. Killed the entire enemy team with witnesses. I shouldn't be able to do that imo. Best I've ever done iirc was 1632 but that was back in CB with the same weapons but 30 single heat sinks, I don't believe it's possible to do that much with my current config anymore.

You were brawling within 200-300m with non-scatter weapons and did 1100 damage.

Look, I'm not trying to be an ***. I'm just saying, straight up, that's a match I would be so ashamed of that I'd try my damnedest to forget it ever happened.

Doing 1000+ damage isn't "cool". It's not "good". All it shows is that the pilot doing the shooting can't aim for ******-all and managed to knock practically every limb off the enemy mechs before finally getting the kills.

You came in here trying to show that "PPCs are good", but your evidence only supports one of two possibilities:

1) You're a lousy shot

or

2) PPCs are so bad, and spread their damage out so much, that it's impossible to get kills with them without splashing all over the place and dealing tons of collateral damage.

Hint: Just put your foot in your mouth quickly and point at #2. PPCs do have really bad splash. That makes them the opposite of good.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 01 December 2012 - 04:51 PM.

[FerretGR]

Tempered, on 01 December 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Energy weapons become used only by those that can't mount ballistics, can't aim with ballistics, or just don't know any better.

O_o

No. Compare the CDA-2A to the 3M. I take the 2A every time and do more damage, and at the end of the match have 50% less R&R because of ammo. It's much more about personal taste: my most effective builds are all energy builds, so it's not a ballistics>energy situation from my perspective.

[Gristle]

What Vlad is saying is he would have had those 3 kills and only inflicted 81 damage.

[John Norad]

Noodlesoup, on 01 December 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

battletech was never about using ALL of your weapons ALL of the time. it was having a spread of weapons appropriate for different engagement ranges and using them effectively and efficiently.

That's a blanket statement and as such only partially correct.
It depends on the mech and loadout design. Some mechs are designed around one range and weapon system (Awesome 8Q), some mechs are designed for being effective at various ranges (Stalker 3F), some are designed to fire all their primary weapons all the time, plus their backup weaponry, if needed (Jägermech 6S).

Energy weapons are not overpowered and won't be overpowered, even with Heat Sinks twice as good as now. The optimal loadout will always be a mix, just like the 2ERPPC + Gauss on your Atlas. And believe it or not, even with double the current heat dissipation, that loadout won't be much different. You'll just fire the PPCs a bit more often and additionally some of the secondary weapons (if you have any).
Hey, it's a 100t mech ffs! It is supposed to have that weapon density and use it.
If the increased dps leads to targets melting too fast, then the solution should be to reduce dps, not curbstomp every powerful mech that happens to use a lot of energy weapons by crippling it with a horrible heat system.
Wait for assault mechs that can easily field 2 or 3 Gauss Rifles and you will see just how wrong that heat system is.