339 replies to this topic

[Sleepy Head]

Thank goodness someone finally said it. The devs didn't screw up anything horribly!

[StaIker]

I only played MWLL for a short time but my recollection was that the maps were made by people who had *zero* understanding of maneuver and tactical requirements and they were awful as a result. Bad terrain can ruin a game with ranges as long as MW.

[Zakatak]

HEY! I'm just OCD! That is why I want my 700m range. 630 is a disusting number.

[William Petersen]

Zakatak, on 10 May 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

HEY! I'm just OCD! That is why I want my 700m range. 630 is a disusting number.

Just because it's not round doesn't meant it's disgusting. An amusing factorization of 630 is 1*3*3*7*10.

Also, no multiple of nine is ever disgusting. =P

[Topsytervy]

Ethicus, on 10 May 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Yoseful Mallad...
I can appreciate that

Personally i agree totally with you. I think the ranges as of now create a need for more skill based combat. When you have a player on your team who is a die-hard catapult pilot, and every game he miraculously gets the most kills on your team whille only using LRMs and a few med lasers. Respect is earned.

I saw a few people complaing about the minimum range of the PPC, and once again, i think it adds that much more necessity for skill. It will make players act a certain way around mechs. When you see an awesome on the horizon, that light mech that you may have taken for granteed comes in handy when he NARCs a target from a close range letting that Pro catapult player in the battlefield rain death. this occuring of course, while your light scout is flanking the Awesome from every direction while its still unable to get a clear shot with its PPCs

The ranges they have chosen were chosen for a reason and i think they are doing a good job at it so far..

PANZERBUNNY, on 10 May 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

There are many aspects that the whiner goons aren't taking into consideration.

This is a simulator.

One thing that most of these games CAN'T replicate very well is the battlefield environment and it's visual limitations to the tank/mech/whatever gunner.

A weapon may have a max range of a mile, but in combat situations your common range of engagement may be 250-350ft due to accuracy fall off due to lack of reliable visuals.

Constant smoke and weather are lag bombs and are pretty much left out of simulators. We'll see how much of that they add. A scout eith smoke bombs to run ahead and drop would be hella cool.

I agree that players of previous games are spoiled snipers when the range whines reer their heads.

Ideally on 95% of the maps this whine won't be an issue because open field fighting should be a thing of the past. Battles happen over areas of interest, not barren fields of waste. Your commanders will make sure of that.

Even if a mech with lots of long range potential has say 2 "turns" of target lock and firing, a committed mech that is closing the distance will close the distance. You 'll get a few shots and he'll be running around you like a cheetah on crack with lasers.

Stick with your lance mates. If you decide to run solo you'll probably get mauled.

Of course...weapon skills could very well increase weapons range a bit. Do we know?

The one thing I look forward too are the whines about "my LRM's and PPC's are not working while other mechs are brawling me at close range." <----it'll happen.

Like you said "lance mates", your lighter mates should be protecting your heaver ones. this way the light skermisher cannot get at the heaver's back side. in lance warfare its not 4 man free for all its a team effort. i also wonder how much leading a target will affect weapons fire.

[Vollstrecker]

StaIker, on 10 May 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Sorry, this is wrong. If the Cat needs help from a team mate to finish the target at close range then we are no longer talking about a 1v1, it's now 2v1. To make it a fair example the enemy must now be presumed to get 2 rushing brawlers in the example, only 1 of which the Cat will partially damage while the other gets into firing range untouched. Alternatively, if the Cat is forced to engage a rushing target at close range because LRM's can't do enough damage then it's no longer acting as a support Mech, you may as well bring a brawler yourself.

Belisarius' description of how combat works in practice was exactly correct. In order for long range weapons to be viable they have to utterly dominate at long range. If they are only capable of harasment and are not killing weapons in their own right or if their range makes them only marginally effective as a softening tool, then they actually handicap the team that uses them because bringing more brawlers provides more usable firepower.

It sounds to me like people are saying LRMs should be killing things before they can effectively return fire if said target doesn't have them. Long Range Missiles don't need to DOMINATE at long range, there aren't many weapons that can do that kind of damage at that kind of range. AC20s don't DOMINATE at brawling as clustered Medium Lasers do more damage with other drawbacks. They need to be VIABLE at long range, and they certainly are.

[StaIker]

Not LRM's specifically, but long range weapons as a class.

Quote

They need to be VIABLE at long range, and they certainly are.

On what basis do you claim that, as you've never played the game?

[Ethicus]

Vollstrecker, on 10 May 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

It sounds to me like people are saying LRMs should be killing things before they can effectively return fire if said target doesn't have them. Long Range Missiles don't need to DOMINATE at long range, there aren't many weapons that can do that kind of damage at that kind of range. AC20s don't DOMINATE at brawling as clustered Medium Lasers do more damage with other drawbacks. They need to be VIABLE at long range, and they certainly are.

I agree. LRMs arent meant to destroy enemies before they even know theres an enemy force on the board. it is a fire support mech. A skilled fire support pilot would know that his lance mates engage first, then he strategically places the LRM volleys on the targets so that he can maximize the effectiveness of the limited LRM ammo

When you have a hunchback that got up close to an awesome, you want that extra LRM damage that disorientates the awesome more and more while the AC/20 chews away at the armor.

If any of the weapons were strong enough to be killing people in a few shots, it takes away what MW is. (in my opinion) i mean if you hoot 2 AC/20 at like a commando, yea he's probably goin down. but a hunchback vs. hunchback should take at LEAST 5 well placed rounds to take him down.

[AlphaKale]

movingtarget, on 10 May 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

i noticed the lrms tend to arc up alot before comming down if they could be direct fired in a straight line they could probaby double there range at the cost of hitting obstructions, such as houses and trees

Actually no... The way to get a projectile to travel the furthest possible distance is to fire it at 45 degrees relative to the ground. Baring any wind, that gives you the most range. I'm guessing that's the reason the LRMs seem to do it in the screenshots. Also, attack from above is probably harder to dodge, and the LRMs that don't direct hit will explode in the ground around you, possibly doing some splash damage depending on how they end up in the final game.

[Gabriel Bekker]

Ryokochan, on 10 May 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

As someone said in another Thread MW4 ruined a whole generation of mechwarriors.

I resemble that remark...
I've been playing MW4 since I was about 11, and those games are what first got me into the Battletech universe. Despite this, I still understand that MW4 got a lot of things wrong, and I am willing to adjust and adapt, as any mechwarrior should do without hesitation. I have yet to complain about ranges, though I do find some of the battlemechs woefully underpowered. (Dragon and Cicada, mostly)

[Stormeris]

William Petersen, on 10 May 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Just because it's not round doesn't meant it's disgusting. An amusing factorization of 630 is 1*3*3*7*10.

Also, no multiple of nine is ever disgusting. =P

hell yeah, 630 is Leet , i agree with this thread though and atm with everything else devs done

[Stormeris]

Gabriel Bekker, on 10 May 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

I resemble that remark...
I've been playing MW4 since I was about 11, and those games are what first got me into the Battletech universe. Despite this, I still understand that MW4 got a lot of things wrong, and I am willing to adjust and adapt, as any mechwarrior should do without hesitation. I have yet to complain about ranges, though I do find some of the battlemechs woefully underpowered. (Dragon and Cicada, mostly)

Cicada underpowered? whaaaaaaaat? cicada is the fastest released mech and its a medium xD Dragon is actually quite fast and armored for its weight class in my opinion, though it is slightly undergunned

[Vollstrecker]

StaIker, on 10 May 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

On what basis do you claim that, as you've never played the game?

The fact that they're still the longest range weapon in the game (given current data) with high damage potential in the 15/20 rack and not requiring Line of Sight. The last part alone is going to be very useful, judging from the map we've seen.

[Kudzu]

Lothahnus, on 10 May 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I am not really complaining about the game play as much about how dumb it is for such an advance tech is so limited in range.

Do you complain about how unrealistic warp speed is in Star Trek or Jedi force powers or lightsabers in Star Wars? Different universe, different rules.

Gabriel Bekker, on 10 May 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

I resemble that remark...
though I do find some of the battlemechs woefully underpowered. (Dragon and Cicada, mostly)

They both have some pretty nasty variants.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cicada
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragon
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grand_Dragon

[Insidious Johnson]

Belisarius†, on 10 May 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

I'm still not certain why shorter ranges help that though. Relative to detection ranges, you mean? ... and then we're more or less boned. I don't think the risk is worth it and I don't think it can be reverted at a later date, so I'm engaging thermonuclear mode now.

Detection ranges besides visual is not known/finalized at the moment. I was refering to the speed of the scout class as a whole. That shortens exposure to damage time. Also, we don't know map sizes beyond the happy lake the dev's like to fight in. All we know is one well frosted river valley. We assume the spawn points are much closer to each other for testing. I do know, as a light pilot, I like these numbers for kiting and luring. But yes, these numbers do make it easier to get hit @ max range while not necessarily making a full commitment to any engagement. That is the part that worries me, it could turn a 5 minute farm job into a 30 minute hunt. I'm MORE worried about the timer limitation on a game than the limits of the weaponry. I don't like timers unless there is a REAL objective at stake. Obliterate the other team is not a good reason to limit time alone and it only supports the LEERRROOYYY JEENKKKINNS style of play. However, if the results of the previous mission effect the next, I can see a need for rapid sequencing.

[Gabriel Bekker]

stormeris, on 10 May 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Cicada underpowered? whaaaaaaaat? cicada is the fastest released mech and its a medium xD Dragon is actually quite fast and armored for its weight class in my opinion, though it is slightly undergunned

Undergunned is what I meant by underpowered. I understand that the Cicada is an extremely fast scout mech, but 2 medium lasers and a single small laser for a 40 ton mech is ridiculous. Same with the Dragon, really. What good is armor and speed if you do not have enough guns to make use of them?

[Stormeris]

Gabriel Bekker, on 10 May 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

Undergunned is what I meant by underpowered. I understand that the Cicada is an extremely fast scout mech, but 2 medium lasers and a single small laser for a 40 ton mech is ridiculous. Same with the Dragon, really. What good is armor and speed if you do not have enough guns to make use of them?

Cicada was made a direct counter to scout mechs, imo its weaponry is enough to scramble some commandos or locusts wouldnt you agree? and the dragon is longe range combatant, with his AC 10, of course it could be replaced with AC 20 for mroe close range punch

Edited by stormeris, 10 May 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[Gabriel Bekker]

stormeris, on 10 May 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

Cicada was made a direct counter to scout mechs, imo its weaponry is enough to scramble some commandos or locusts wouldnt you agree? and the dragon is longe range combatant, with his AC 10, of course it could be replaced with AC 20 for mroe close range punch

Dragon has an A/C 5, not an A/C 10, let alone an A/C 20. Backed up by only an LRM 10 rack and two medium lasers, it is sorely lacking in firepower for its weight.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Belisarius†, on 10 May 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

So... cloning tabletop values (which the creators of the tabletop game have explicitly stated were designed to simply keep the board small enough to be used in a living room) into a completely different medium automatically makes for a "thinking man's game"?

I'm glad I don't live on whatever planet you come from.

I'm also very glad to see at least some people are realising how crippling this will be to tactical play.

Doom and gloom.

It isn't crippling at all. You can still stay at range...you just need your lance protecting you....as it should be...acting as buffers between the support elements since the range is reduced.

If you think you'll be able to run around playing lone wolf sniper getting kills across the map you'll be in for a shock...and whine....and tears....and /del tree mechwarrioronline

The truth is....someone playing map sniper means they aren't supporting their lance mates beyond plinking at long range.

This means that when it comes to taking objectives your mates are outnumbered.

Some of you may have to actually break a nail on the battlefield. Perhaps those complaining would be more suited in a Coolant Truck or reloading the people doing the real fighting....*shrugs*

[neodym]

Garth Erlam, on 10 May 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Max range of the LRM in Mech3 was 800 metres.

lol fail,but still they were more accurate,more damage and most important no minimum range...... also you could use it in this indirect fire support way but these MWO lrms just automaticly head up to sky and then fall down with zero skill needed


honestly I would be cool with reduced range if there was no minimum range and this super noob launch and flight path