I've seen a few other threads here about ammo costs, particularly for LRM users. I've had a few thoughts on the subject, with several different ideas. but i seem to be coming back to the easiest, in my opinion.
Reduce cost per ton of ALL ammo by %75. and also remove the %75 refill for free.
this solves a lot of problems for people. with the state of the economy in the game, mechs that use all energy weapons are getting a needless leg up on those of us that choose to use ballistic and missile based weapons. even spending only a few tons of LRM ammo ends up costing 60K plus in rearming. similar for Gauss though it isn't as bad for the other ballistics.
now try an Artemis build. twice the cost per ton. 120k plus per match? that's most of my winnings if im not in a founders. and with the prerequisite of not dying, and that my team wins.
with the reduction of costs, if i fire all my ammo, yes i am still looking at a big rearm payment. but if i don't it is reduced. right now its almost like i SHOULD just waste ammo on whatever target is running around, im getting most of it for free anyways.
so, as a response to some known rebuttals to this proposal:
1) its a balance mechanic so that people don't just spam missiles!
a1) out of match costs should NOT be a balancing factor for In-match performance. If one insists that it is required, why does one group of weapons get an outright exception, when it is not needed? i don't see a lack of energy weapons on the field. and i don't think that would change just because ammo got a price reduction.
2) just use the %75 you get free and don't rearm!
a2) why should i have to? i shouldn't have to pad my ammo amounts just to carry what i feel is sufficient ammo and cheat the system to get it.
3) just use an all energy mech to farm!
a3) again, why should i have to? there is no reason i should change my play style just because one system has a drawback that can not be compared to the other.
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Instead Of %75 For Free, Reduce Cost Per Ton By %75
Started by FerrolupisXIII, Dec 02 2012 08:38 AM
12 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:58 AM
This would make piloting the CPLT-A1 completely unfeasible. Granted I'm sure many people would like that, but on a mech with no other hardpoints besides missiles it may as well be deleted.
I really think that just a discount would skyrocket rearm costs.
I really think that just a discount would skyrocket rearm costs.
#3
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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:01 AM
Zirand, on 02 December 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:
This would make piloting the CPLT-A1 completely unfeasible. Granted I'm sure many people would like that, but on a mech with no other hardpoints besides missiles it may as well be deleted.
I really think that just a discount would skyrocket rearm costs.
I really think that just a discount would skyrocket rearm costs.
Yes, because relying on handouts and gimping your own ammo supply is so useful for the team eh?
#4
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- Caladbolg
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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:30 AM
Zirand, on 02 December 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:
This would make piloting the CPLT-A1 completely unfeasible. Granted I'm sure many people would like that, but on a mech with no other hardpoints besides missiles it may as well be deleted.
I really think that just a discount would skyrocket rearm costs.
I really think that just a discount would skyrocket rearm costs.
how would this ruin the A1? in reality it would cost LESS to rearm unless you spent almost all your ammo. even then, spending all of it would just be like the 25% you refill now. effectively at worst, you spent all your ammo. its the same cost as the 25% you pay for now. so i fail to see your logic.
#5
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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:19 PM
FerrolupisXIII, on 02 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:
how would this ruin the A1? in reality it would cost LESS to rearm unless you spent almost all your ammo. even then, spending all of it would just be like the 25% you refill now. effectively at worst, you spent all your ammo. its the same cost as the 25% you pay for now. so i fail to see your logic.
He is using free reload, that is why it would ruin it for him.
#6
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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:21 PM
FerrolupisXIII, on 02 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:
how would this ruin the A1? in reality it would cost LESS to rearm unless you spent almost all your ammo. even then, spending all of it would just be like the 25% you refill now. effectively at worst, you spent all your ammo. its the same cost as the 25% you pay for now. so i fail to see your logic.
Sometimes I fail to see my own logic. I guess what it boils down to is I already hate repair bills, and currently with the 75% free, I can avoid paying anything for rearm on my mechs that have missiles. I personally wouldn't mind rearm bills going away completely, but now that I'm actually thinking clearly I wouldn't at least mind trying the 75% discount. If the rearm bills aren't too horrible it'd be worth it to satisfy my OCD tick at seeing my mech at 75% ammo before I join a match.
Deadoon, on 02 December 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:
Yes, because relying on handouts and gimping your own ammo supply is so useful for the team eh?
I overestimate how much ammo I need so my 75% of fill has yet to run out on even long matches. Besides, I hate going in the red if I lose a match and get heavily damaged, where I'm at currently I always make at least 5-10k on even bad matches. Throw a 84-108k rearm bill on that (which is what it currently is at 75%) and it just becomes no fun.
#7
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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:27 PM
Deadoon, on 02 December 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:
He is using free reload, that is why it would ruin it for him.
Yes, I am using free reload. I used to try and pay for it every match, but the costs are just too high, especially on a long match where I use a lot of ammo. I would like to say that anyone using the A1 that isn't currently on premium would agree with me, but I can't assume that.
#8
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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:41 PM
My belief is that the cost of repairs does have a figure, based on the original Battletech value.
To this figure, they apply a modifier. This is why the cost of repairs is low.
Missiles are not treated with the same modifier, but rather receive a free amount. Armour is also treated differently, having a different modifier.
My solution is that all items in repair and reload should have the same base modifier to cost, remove the free allocation.
Why not just adjust the base cost?
If you adjust base cost, things change further down the line with regards to faction and community warfare.
I also think that if you do not have the C-bills to fully repair and re-arm your mech, the system should take all your c-bills for a partial repair and re-arm. Hands up all those who go into battle with people who don't repair and are annoyed by it.
To this figure, they apply a modifier. This is why the cost of repairs is low.
Missiles are not treated with the same modifier, but rather receive a free amount. Armour is also treated differently, having a different modifier.
My solution is that all items in repair and reload should have the same base modifier to cost, remove the free allocation.
Why not just adjust the base cost?
If you adjust base cost, things change further down the line with regards to faction and community warfare.
I also think that if you do not have the C-bills to fully repair and re-arm your mech, the system should take all your c-bills for a partial repair and re-arm. Hands up all those who go into battle with people who don't repair and are annoyed by it.
#9
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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:05 PM
Let's run the numbers.
LRM + Artemis cost = 60k/ton. Each ton 180 missiles.
75% of 60k is 15k.
Minimum and almost useless ammo load is 4 tons.
We're back to 60k. Add repair costs of a map loss of 30 to 60k depending on mech and you just got into bad cash loss per map loss and practically insignificant gain on map win. You'd be wasting your funds to help the team get gobs of cash.
Workable ammo load for LRM indirect fire support builds (4 launchers) under current:
missile warning (up to 10 second warning to run into cover. Warning shows on target's screen before missiles leave the tubes)
+lock loss (self-explanatory)
+lagshield (self-explanatory..netcode of fail)
+vertical movement hit detection bug (if mechs move down a slope or jet up/down as missiles hit the missile damage vanishes)
+ full reload cost when ammo bin isn't full (1 ton = 180missiles. you have 160missiles left and get charged full price to refill)
... is roughly 6 to 8 tons. (1080-> 1440 missiles)
6 tons of ammo would run 90k.
repair costs of mech usually run between 30 to 60k depending on mech type.
90+30 = 120k
You've made zero money in a standard win (110k) where you spent all your ammo in support of the team. You lose money in a non-win.
75% discount overall does not work.
an 85% discount would run into a loss if map is lost + repair costs.
A 90% discount is workable. @ 6k per ton of ammo , 6 tons run 36k. 8 tons run 48k. Add repair costs and its 66k->78k range. There is minimum profit per map won and insignificant gain in a loss.
LRM + Artemis cost = 60k/ton. Each ton 180 missiles.
75% of 60k is 15k.
Minimum and almost useless ammo load is 4 tons.
We're back to 60k. Add repair costs of a map loss of 30 to 60k depending on mech and you just got into bad cash loss per map loss and practically insignificant gain on map win. You'd be wasting your funds to help the team get gobs of cash.
Workable ammo load for LRM indirect fire support builds (4 launchers) under current:
missile warning (up to 10 second warning to run into cover. Warning shows on target's screen before missiles leave the tubes)
+lock loss (self-explanatory)
+lagshield (self-explanatory..netcode of fail)
+vertical movement hit detection bug (if mechs move down a slope or jet up/down as missiles hit the missile damage vanishes)
+ full reload cost when ammo bin isn't full (1 ton = 180missiles. you have 160missiles left and get charged full price to refill)
... is roughly 6 to 8 tons. (1080-> 1440 missiles)
6 tons of ammo would run 90k.
repair costs of mech usually run between 30 to 60k depending on mech type.
90+30 = 120k
You've made zero money in a standard win (110k) where you spent all your ammo in support of the team. You lose money in a non-win.
75% discount overall does not work.
an 85% discount would run into a loss if map is lost + repair costs.
A 90% discount is workable. @ 6k per ton of ammo , 6 tons run 36k. 8 tons run 48k. Add repair costs and its 66k->78k range. There is minimum profit per map won and insignificant gain in a loss.
#10
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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:27 PM
Skyfaller, on 02 December 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:
A 90% discount is workable. @ 6k per ton of ammo , 6 tons run 36k. 8 tons run 48k. Add repair costs and its 66k->78k range. There is minimum profit per map won and insignificant gain in a loss.
Well, it would at least shut up the "LRM SPAM" haters. For a minute.
#11
Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:20 PM
FerrolupisXIII, on 02 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:
how would this ruin the A1? in reality it would cost LESS to rearm unless you spent almost all your ammo. even then, spending all of it would just be like the 25% you refill now. effectively at worst, you spent all your ammo. its the same cost as the 25% you pay for now. so i fail to see your logic.
LRMs do not need to cost any less.. ..last thing we want is another LRM-Online fest where everyone boats because its cheaper.
#12
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- Caladbolg
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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:37 PM
@skyfaller: Obviously the amounts are subject to change, this was just an option to keep the same relative costs while getting rid of the silly %75 free ammo. of course i'd like to see ammo costs go down, i think its an unnecessary burden on pilots to have to choose one over the other at this stage. perhaps in community warfare it has a place but not right now.
I'm quite aware of the maths let me tell you. i run a C1 with Artemis, DHS, Endo, and an XL engine. yes my repair is high but i accept that. reload however usually accounts for well more than half my bill which i find absurd.
@white bear: as i said, i personally do not believe out of match costs should bu used to effect in game balance. making an item cost more just makes it exclusive to people that have the money for it. which is not balance at all. Few people stopped using LRM's because of the costs, they stopped using them because they're not as powerful anymore.
I'm quite aware of the maths let me tell you. i run a C1 with Artemis, DHS, Endo, and an XL engine. yes my repair is high but i accept that. reload however usually accounts for well more than half my bill which i find absurd.
@white bear: as i said, i personally do not believe out of match costs should bu used to effect in game balance. making an item cost more just makes it exclusive to people that have the money for it. which is not balance at all. Few people stopped using LRM's because of the costs, they stopped using them because they're not as powerful anymore.
#13
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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:07 PM
White Bear 84, on 02 December 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:
LRMs do not need to cost any less.. ..last thing we want is another LRM-Online fest where everyone boats because its cheaper.
As opposed to what? Laser fest where there is no ammo to pay? Autocannon fest where the ammo is dirt cheap?
The only reason LRM is hated is because you dont get to shoot back at the guy shooting you... yet conveniently ignore the LRM cannot shoot you unless you're spotted and outside of cover.
FerrolupisXIII, on 02 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:
@skyfaller: Obviously the amounts are subject to change, this was just an option to keep the same relative costs while getting rid of the silly %75 free ammo.
The thing is, I'd only agree to even a 90% cost reduction and no free ammo IF the missile warning was removed or changed to only pop up when the missiles are 500m from you. If im to pay for very expensive ammo eating up almost all my earnings and I do this to support my team (who will be getting gobs of cash for my efforts) then I do not want my targets to have an up to 10 second warning. 5 seconds is more than plenty for a mech near cover to get back into cover. 10 seconds is enough to run from the wide open into cover in even the slowest mech. Heck my CatA1 crawls at 36kph and it can run to cover with that warning.
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I'm quite aware of the maths let me tell you. i run a C1 with Artemis, DHS, Endo, and an XL engine. yes my repair is high but i accept that.
Friend me in game ... you and I have to run some
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