76 replies to this topic

[FoxyFlashbang]

So I have been doing some thinking, trying to apply logical reasoning to what these suicide farmers/afk'ers/disco'ers/whatever'ers are actually trying to accomplish. (Possibly a flawed premise from the start, trying to apply logic to trolls.) The big "Why" that everyone asks when they see what these people are doing once the match starts. That is what I would really like to know. The What is obvious, the Who is obvious (and a band), the How is obvious, the When is obvious, the Where is obvious, but the Why eludes me. Why? What are they trying to accomplish, what is their goal? I am opperating on the assumption that from the moment these players log in, they pick a trial mech and immediately start doing their thing, and have done this from their very first match, i.e., never legitimately participating in a single game.

This is my route of thinking on this topic:
Q 1- Why do these individuals do what they do?
A 1- To make more cbills, faster.
Q 2- Why do they want to make more cbills, faster?
A 2- To get into new mechs, or maximize the upgrades on mechs they already have, faster.
Q 3- Why do they want new or maximally upgraded mechs?
A 3- To use these mechs to play in games.

Now this last point is the one that has me confused. Why would these players want to get into their own mechs, when they haven't had the experience of piloting the trial mechs? They will fail, more often then not, in much more expensive mechs, losing all the money they exploited the system for, because they have no practice at actually playing the game. I fail to see how that is a desirable outcome for anyone. Upon realising how inefficient their method actually is in the long term, I expect those who exploit the system in this particular way to change thier stratagies, and instead play the game how it is meant to be played, training with the trial mechs, participating in matches, and ultimately becoming better at the game. Because thats the bottom line. A good player will make more money actually participating in matches than a farmer will. Period.

Now, this theory has two major faults that I can see. (Feel free to point out any other faults or logical fallacies that I may have made.) First, my answer to the second question I postualted. That is a large assumption. They may be doing this for no reason other than to make the little counter at the bottom of their home screen read all 9's. They may not be spending any of the money they are making at all. In which case... I fail to see the reasoning of why they would want to do that. It is literally nonsense.

The second inconsistancy is my assumption that these individuals that participate in farming have no experience playing the game. That may very well not be true. These players may in fact be veterans, or in fact Founders, those of us who helped contribute their hard earned money to make this game what it is. People who have hundreds of hours of experience and can out-pilot 90% of us also playing this game. But, assuming it is true, that raises more questions, such as, again, why? Why would these players do this? For teh lolz? To make more money that they don't need (because if they applied their skills to participating legitimately in matches, they would make more money over time than they would farming, AND they would be aware of this due to said game experience) ruining the experience for many others?

I can think of no reasonable, logical, satisfying answer to this question. Can anyone else?

Lastly, there is the troll option, which, since we are dealing with human beings, is always a legitimate (if supremely frustrating) motivation and explaination for actions.

Now, this is not asking what we can do to curtail this activity, what punishments should be levied against the perpetrators, or what PGI should do to fix the in-game economy (assuming it indeed needs fixing at all), that has been discussed and complained about AD NAUSEUM in other posts and threads. I am just mearly curious on other peoples opinion on the motivation of these individuals who are exploiting the game in this way. Because, I believe, that once we know the cause of the problem, the rest will sort itself out nicely, without much undue fuss.

[Taiji]

The joy of stealing.

[Bguk]

Are you attempting to write your research paper?

Bottom line, there are people out there who want the easiest route possible in order to gain any real or perceived benefit.

[the Gingerbread Man]

Most reward.
Least effort.

Same reason people play guided missile boats.

[Agent of Change]

Laziness and a disregard for the affect they have on the enjoyment of the game.

[Corpsecandle]

FoxyFlashbang, on 30 November 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

Because thats the bottom line. A good player will make more money actually participating in matches than a farmer will. Period.

This is wrong. Assuming the botter is rotating four mechs and suiciding to get out of the match ASAP they make more money faster by suiciding. Naturally the counter argument is "the mechs have a cooldown for use until the end of the match" which is true BUT the very act of taking yourself out like that is going to make the match end faster because you've severely imbalanced the state of the match.

Quote

The second inconsistancy is my assumption that these individuals that participate in farming have no experience playing the game. That may very well not be true. These players may in fact be veterans, or in fact Founders, those of us who helped contribute their hard earned money to make this game what it is. People who have hundreds of hours of experience and can out-pilot 90% of us also playing this game. But, assuming it is true, that raises more questions, such as, again, why? Why would these players do this? For teh lolz? To make more money that they don't need (because if they applied their skills to participating legitimately in matches, they would make more money over time than they would farming, AND they would be aware of this due to said game experience) ruining the experience for many others?

I can think of no reasonable, logical, satisfying answer to this question. Can anyone else?

These people want to experiment, which takes A LOT of in game cash. Unfortunately there's no other outlet at this time.


There's also one glaring issue you seem to be overlooking - assuming that the folks doing this are actually at their computers and not watching TV or sitting at work.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

I have an idea for a game::
-the player makes money on a single round of play.
-the money goes towards new things.
-I have now placed a value on a single game round.
-I make these game rounds only 15min long, I don't want these rounds lasting too long, therefore I want players to play a lot of rounds.
-Thus idea of playing a lot of rounds means I have placed a lower value on a single round.
-Thus people will take the path of least resistance per round to get the most out of as many rounds as possible.

Its interesting to watch players here put so much emphasis on a single round of play, when the game is designed to be little 15min skirmishes and you're supposed to play a ton of them. How / why should I treat round 5 / 10 I'm playing more important than round n+1? Maybe Community Warfare will actually make these rounds mean something, but right now they're meaningless with the only reason to play is to get the money. PGI should have had community warfare from the start if they wanted a single 15m match to mean more than single 15m match 10 of the 50 I've played this week.

note: not saying I am 100% correct, but its one of reasons I feel there are tons of farmers, and why there is an allure to farming.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 30 November 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[Lupin]

In this game skill and experience counts. So while they are building up Cbills they are not developing anything but Cbills.
Having a custom mech does not mean you know how to play.

Lets at least hope these players stick around to play correctly when they have finished being a pain to everyone else.
P.S. And have them play for real to have similar problems with AFK, Farming, trolling and robots to show them how it feels.

Edited by Lupin, 30 November 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Lupin, on 30 November 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

In this game skill and experience counts. So while they are building up Cbills they are not developing anything but Cbills.
Having a custom mech does not mean you know how to play.

Lets at least hope these players stick around to play correctly when they have finished being a pain to everyone else.

Let's not, this is gonna be harsh but... let's hope their accounts are banned or that the players in the games they actually decide they want to play make it so they experience the frustration they inflicted on everyone else. "oh hey you used to like to explode in the start area all the time didn't you... here let me help you with that."

edit: Not advocating any violation of the rules i'm just saying mob justice is fun sometimes or at least edifying. I would greatly prefer that PGI drops the hammer on these tools so that no one in the community feels they have to take matters into their own hands and violate the rules themselves.

Edited by Agent of Change, 30 November 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[Taryys]

Good questions and thoughts about these crappy people.


Stop Hazing and Start Raising...

Please sign here:

How To Reduce The Grind And Create A Great New User Experience

[TwoFaced]

I really can not with skill arguement.

Some skill to play the game, but anyone with basic fps can easily play this game, things move way slower so aiming isnt much of an issue, not like trying to HS someone at 1000 meters,or auto switching gear from long to short range when someone sneaks up on you.

I am sorry, learning to lag shoot is currently the only real skill, that and learning each mechs week point, but most people go straight for legs from what I seen, which has been common for many moons in mech game history.

Farming makes perfect sense. More bang for the buck. I saw it happening as soon as I got to do closed beta and stated here on forums and had people in vent and ts tell me I was crazy, and I was being a hater. There isnt much they can do about it, how do u know somone hasnt DC'd, or went afk or is protesting a match, you gonna assume and ban them for farming? I dont think so, then u add in they purchased MC, well company opening themself up for a lawsuite, seen it happen in other games, funny as it sounds, it does happen...I purchased this and now u ban me for what? SO now i win lawsuite and you pay me for my time, my MC and whatever else the evil lawyer dudes can throw in, plus I can fill out a BBB complaint and have negative impact on your future, so no future investors will invest. Its a lot more than anyone can imagine. I remember one MMORPG that got the game ip blocked on east coast for almost a month for fcc complains for unfair business practices...yes it does happen.

Basically they need to do this
you dont move more than say 200m in match, u get paid zilch, 0, nothing.
you dont fire a weapon in match you get nothing
base cbill count on damage done and nothing else...this alone will end farmers, but kills light mechs for use in game and hinders cash flow of mediums.

So really no real fix...well trial mechs get no cbills just like experiance, that would work, but how would u get new people to actually play.

I hear people complaining, but honestly, how can u fix it....you really cant without a whole crap load of other issues and money.

Now something else since zeroing wont happen anymore as stated by company. Farmers are not farmers just to have better stuff. Its for RL cash money via ebay and other sites that sell. Hey play MWO, for 500 bux you can have 1billion in cbillz and you can purchase anything in game. Wow all that for having an auto logger. Only good thing I noticed was the company killing the multiclient on same pc, but thier is easy work around for that already...

[Agent of Change]

TwoFaced, on 30 November 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Farming makes perfect sense. More bang for the buck. I saw it happening as soon as I got to do closed beta and stated here on forums and had people in vent and ts tell me I was crazy, and I was being a hater. There isnt much they can do about it, how do u know somone hasnt DC'd, or went afk or is protesting a match, you gonna assume and ban them for farming? I dont think so, then u add in they purchased MC, well company opening themself up for a lawsuite, seen it happen in other games, funny as it sounds, it does happen...I purchased this and now u ban me for what? SO now i win lawsuite and you pay me for my time, my MC and whatever else the evil lawyer dudes can throw in, plus I can fill out a BBB complaint and have negative impact on your future, so no future investors will invest. Its a lot more than anyone can imagine. I remember one MMORPG that got the game ip blocked on east coast for almost a month for fcc complains for unfair business practices...yes it does happen.

Farming is against the code of conduct and terms of service. It is cheating, they can track you and see that you suicided in 90% of your games and ban you. It doesn't really matter if you bought MC your lawsuit would be laughed out of court if it even made it there because it was all in the terms of service that you agreed to when creating the account. The BBB thing is hilarious because it is largely a joke anyway, and the FCC would need grounds for unfair business practices and banning people for violating terms they were told they would be banned for is not nearly enough.

You can't defend farming, you can't justify it, it is against the rules of the game and it unfairly impacts the enjoyment of the game for those around the perpetrators. For the time being and in perpetuity lay down the banhammer on the people abusing this system, and then change the system to make the exploit useless.

[Taryys]

I love you, man!!

Agent of Change, on 30 November 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Farming is against the code of conduct and terms of service. It is cheating, they can track you and see that you suicided in 90% of your games and ban you. It doesn't really matter if you bought MC your lawsuit would be laughed out of court if it even made it there because it was all in the terms of service that you agreed to when creating the account. The BBB thing is hilarious because it is largely a joke anyway, and the FCC would need grounds for unfair business practices and banning people for violating terms they were told they would be banned for is not nearly enough.

You can't defend farming, you can't justify it, it is against the rules of the game and it unfairly impacts the enjoyment of the game for those around the perpetrators. For the time being and in perpetuity lay down the banhammer on the people abusing this system, and then change the system to make the exploit useless.

I wish I could super-mega-ultra like your post.

[Jace11]

I might add that the most notorious bot farmers are now extremely well known to the community and have effectively ruined the games of so many players, that, should they decide they want to play legitimately, they may have a problem with their teammates killing them on sight.


They surely realise this as now and again they write messages at the start saying "blame PGI not me!" etc.

What is the point of being hated by the entire community? Is it some underlying troll behaviour?

Edited by Jace11, 30 November 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Jace11, on 30 November 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

I might add that the most notorious bot farmers are now extremely well known to the community and have effectively ruined the games of so many players, that, should they decide they want to play legitimately, they may have a problem with their teammates killing them on sight.

I said i wasn't suggesting that EVERYONE or anyone SHOULD break any rules. It would be wrong to KILL these asshats, it would violate the teams of service the same as FARMING does. Banning them is the best policy to allow actual PLAYERS who are actually trying to play the game. I truly feel it would be a shame if people started team killing players who were only still around because they hadn't been banned for flagrant violation of the terms of service.

Edited by Agent of Change, 30 November 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[Jello2142]

FoxyFlashbang, on 30 November 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

So I have been doing some thinking, trying to apply logical reasoning to what these suicide farmers/afk'ers/disco'ers/whatever'ers are actually trying to accomplish. (Possibly a flawed premise from the start, trying to apply logic to trolls.) The big "Why" that everyone asks when they see what these people are doing once the match starts. That is what I would really like to know. The What is obvious, the Who is obvious (and a band), the How is obvious, the When is obvious, the Where is obvious, but the Why eludes me. Why? What are they trying to accomplish, what is their goal? I am opperating on the assumption that from the moment these players log in, they pick a trial mech and immediately start doing their thing, and have done this from their very first match, i.e., never legitimately participating in a single game. This is my route of thinking on this topic: Q 1- Why do these individuals do what they do? A 1- To make more cbills, faster. Q 2- Why do they want to make more cbills, faster? A 2- To get into new mechs, or maximize the upgrades on mechs they already have, faster. Q 3- Why do they want new or maximally upgraded mechs? A 3- To use these mechs to play in games. Now this last point is the one that has me confused. Why would these players want to get into their own mechs, when they haven't had the experience of piloting the trial mechs? They will fail, more often then not, in much more expensive mechs, losing all the money they exploited the system for, because they have no practice at actually playing the game. I fail to see how that is a desirable outcome for anyone. Upon realising how inefficient their method actually is in the long term, I expect those who exploit the system in this particular way to change thier stratagies, and instead play the game how it is meant to be played, training with the trial mechs, participating in matches, and ultimately becoming better at the game. Because thats the bottom line. A good player will make more money actually participating in matches than a farmer will. Period. Now, this theory has two major faults that I can see. (Feel free to point out any other faults or logical fallacies that I may have made.) First, my answer to the second question I postualted. That is a large assumption. They may be doing this for no reason other than to make the little counter at the bottom of their home screen read all 9's. They may not be spending any of the money they are making at all. In which case... I fail to see the reasoning of why they would want to do that. It is literally nonsense. The second inconsistancy is my assumption that these individuals that participate in farming have no experience playing the game. That may very well not be true. These players may in fact be veterans, or in fact Founders, those of us who helped contribute their hard earned money to make this game what it is. People who have hundreds of hours of experience and can out-pilot 90% of us also playing this game. But, assuming it is true, that raises more questions, such as, again, why? Why would these players do this? For teh lolz? To make more money that they don't need (because if they applied their skills to participating legitimately in matches, they would make more money over time than they would farming, AND they would be aware of this due to said game experience) ruining the experience for many others? I can think of no reasonable, logical, satisfying answer to this question. Can anyone else? Lastly, there is the troll option, which, since we are dealing with human beings, is always a legitimate (if supremely frustrating) motivation and explaination for actions. Now, this is not asking what we can do to curtail this activity, what punishments should be levied against the perpetrators, or what PGI should do to fix the in-game economy (assuming it indeed needs fixing at all), that has been discussed and complained about AD NAUSEUM in other posts and threads. I am just mearly curious on other peoples opinion on the motivation of these individuals who are exploiting the game in this way. Because, I believe, that once we know the cause of the problem, the rest will sort itself out nicely, without much undue fuss.

My thoughts on the matter not that anyone truly cares.

First off if there are rules against it people will go against said rules, that is true in all situations be it a game, or the guy who just can't help from stealing a pack of bubble gum.

I have noticed more farming/suicides as of late. It coincides with the epic costs on repairing larger mechs especially those with all the goodies and lots of ammo. Which brings me to my other theory, the FU theory. These people used to be able to pilot a Atlas for example and not be in the hole or come up with only 10K cbills in the end and now that it has changed perhaps the feel the need to "stick it to the man" and farm with trials or founder mechs to earn money to support their heavy habbit.

No matter what PGI ultimately does there will still be people trying their hardest to do the least amount of work for the gain however PGI could probably allay some of the revenge farming by fixing some stuff.

[Dudeman3k]

lol I "rush" farm by rushing middle every match with my Founders and YLW (becuase they get C-Bill Bonus)..... But in all actually, you can almost call this suicide farming. I do shoot at, and deal dmg to the opposition, so to say Im a suicider wouldnt be 100% accurate.

I can tell you as a founders, AND a "I want C-Bills" quick player, your questions and answers are too black and white. You sound like a 12 year old trying to reason with another 12 year old. Too naive.

The BEST way to fix this problem is like so:

20% C-Bill Penalty for entering a match Damaged. When I need C-Bills, why spend??
20% C-Bill Penalty for dying with-in the minute. They now actually have to be attentive to the screen, and hell, why not just play now, right??

This DISCOURAGES such methods, and promotes playing the game at the same time.

Chances are I've mopped the floor with some of you folks here, but when I need C-Bills, I need C-bills. AND I know exactly how to do it.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Your list doesn't include the more cynical ... "Because we can." and only hints at the obvious, "Because this is a way to afford upkeep on expensive stuff."

I see many more complaints on the cost of upkeep vs the cost of a purchase. That's a big driver.

Macro/Script farmers are usually the former, the later being people frustrated with the game mechanic (mining bots in EVE and that other game, with the pandas other examples), who purchase the script/macro from the former for the purpose of the later. (yes usually getting a virus or some nonsense along the way)

Capitalism at its finest, find a need, create a solution, screw someone over and then sell it for profit!

[LordBraxton]

REWARD PERFORMANCE

They currently only reward you for showing up.

So a lot of pugs without MC\premium just... show up...

This is the DEVELOPERS FAULT as much as the farmers if not more so.

Poor design = poor consequences.

[Agent of Change]

Jello2142, on 30 November 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

My thoughts on the matter not that anyone truly cares.

First off if there are rules against it people will go against said rules, that is true in all situations be it a game, or the guy who just can't help from stealing a pack of bubble gum.

I have noticed more farming/suicides as of late. It coincides with the epic costs on repairing larger mechs especially those with all the goodies and lots of ammo. Which brings me to my other theory, the FU theory. These people used to be able to pilot a Atlas for example and not be in the hole or come up with only 10K cbills in the end and now that it has changed perhaps the feel the need to "stick it to the man" and farm with trials or founder mechs to earn money to support their heavy habbit.

No matter what PGI ultimately does there will still be people trying their hardest to do the least amount of work for the gain however PGI could probably allay some of the revenge farming by fixing some stuff.

I get what you are saying and I think there probably is an element of "FU theory" at work here. But it still in no way excuses the behavior, and honestly most of the people who would claim "a higher motive" are still just doing this out of laziness for personal gain. People are all too willing to cloak naked greed and inexcusable laziness in the garb of some cause or point or whatever, It's bullshite. They can tell themselves what ever they want it's not gonna convince anyone, cheating is cheating.

Ban'em and fix it so they can't just do it all over again.

EDIt: Addendum: I have said over and over in otehr places how i think the fix should work. Mission/role/combat based rewards with a multiplier for win/loss bonus. Mo more participation awards, no more cash or XP for showing up.

Edited by Agent of Change, 30 November 2012 - 12:09 PM.