31 replies to this topic

[MungFuSensei]

The simplest way to combat farmers would be to remove guaranteed c-bills from winning or losing. Instead of getting a set amount + damage/kills/spotting/caps money, make it so that players ONLY get money for damage/kills/spotting/caps, and then raise the amount that they get for those actions, modified by winning or losing.

This ensures that the only way to get money is to actually play. BAM, no more farmers.

[Dukov Nook]

This was tried, but proved to be a daunting mechanic in the face of repairs. It doesn't work.

[John Norad]

I think the statement is a bit too generalized. So it can't work.

1. Remove guaranteed C-Bills for trial mechs?
Yeah, why not? You can't go minus, after all. Well, you could leave a very small minimum participation reward, but it has to be small enough to de-incentivize farming. Payout should be performance-based. And with that I don't mean cbills for kills. I mean cbills for fullfilling a role.

2. Remove guaranteed C-Bills for owned mechs?
Hell no. There should be a participation reward based on your mech class/weight/equipment quality, that covers average repair costs. Just like an employer in the BT universe would pay you based on what you bring to the table. If you drive something very fancy and expensive, exceeding that flat amount, like umpteenth tons of Artemis ammo? Your problem.

Basically PGI just has to get rid of the guaranteed C-Bills for a loss in a trial mech. That's the broken case that makes farming viable.

Edited by John Norad, 02 December 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Guaranteed c-bills for a loss in a trial Mech are the only reason 90% of the game's incoming userbase will ever see the inside of an owned Mech.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 02 December 2012 - 01:56 PM.

[Secundus]

Why not have win and loss bonuses based on a percentage of your earnings rather than hard numbers. Staying in the battle, performing well, and you get a losing bonus of 50% of total earnings for the rounds. If you win it's a 100% bonus or something. If repairs are too expensive for that mechanic then balance the repair costs around it.

[Goose]

Why would removing the incentive to win reduce farmers?

[Abrahms]

Yeah, trial mechs are ovens, to remove base c-bills for losses would prevent new palyers from every having their own mech.

To require wins in trial mechs would literally make personal mechs unattainable for the vast majority of new players.

PGI could of course, you know, fix heat and this would no longer be an issue and c-bills could be performance based.

[Dukov Nook]

Look at the mechanic this way. The guaranteed c-bills is, essentially, your weekly paycheck. As a merc, your company is paid an amount, some of it up front, to do a task for the employer. The c-bill payout on w/l is your cut of that. if you win, you get a higher cut as the contract pays out higher. Typical inner sphere contract.

[Eumenes]

It may take a few balance passes especially to reduce effects for new players, but it's got to be better than the current system. However other suicider/afk fixes may be needed as well.

I wonder what their metrics are tracking aside from spotting / cap / dmg / kill / assist - if they truly want to make it based on role then it has to cover more. ECM coverage? commander activity?

[MungFuSensei]

By vastly increasing the amount of c-bills given for ACTIONS instead of just showing up, you can make it so that the average amount of c-bill gain will remain the same as the current model. There would be enough to cover repairs and ammo. I'm just pulling these numbers out of my ***, but something along the lines of 20k for a kill, 10k for an assist, 7500 for a spot, etc. Then add a multiplier for a win. Under those conditions, it wouldn't require much to break even, and would greatly reward participation. At the same time, if you're AFK, you get nothing.

You can't make it about winning or losing, because the trial newbs would never get anywhere, and quit. Again, it's not hard to imagine a payment scheme based on action that averages out to be equivelant to the current model.

[Taizan]

I'd be for putting more weight on actual active participation / contribution to a match, than just having connected.

It seems though this will take a while until its implemented. Small steps.

Into the Lab

Quote

Conquest Mode

We've been play testing this for a few weeks now, things are coming along nicely! It's fun and requires lots of team coordination. We're fixing up some balance issues, resource/base locations, and general HUD/BattleGrid messaging to smooth out what's going on. We're taking a look at CB/EXP rewards, focusing on rewarding teamplay above all else. This means a reduction in kill/assist/damage done rewarding, and an increase in holding resources points. With a new mode, comes a new way to launch into matches. A new button will allow players to select/set their default mode to: Quick Play (random), Assault, or Conquest.

[Vlad Ward]

MungFuSensei, on 02 December 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

By vastly increasing the amount of c-bills given for ACTIONS instead of just showing up, you can make it so that the average amount of c-bill gain will remain the same as the current model. There would be enough to cover repairs and ammo. I'm just pulling these numbers out of my ***, but something along the lines of 20k for a kill, 10k for an assist, 7500 for a spot, etc. Then add a multiplier for a win. Under those conditions, it wouldn't require much to break even, and would greatly reward participation. At the same time, if you're AFK, you get nothing.

You can't make it about winning or losing, because the trial newbs would never get anywhere, and quit. Again, it's not hard to imagine a payment scheme based on action that averages out to be equivelant to the current model.

Sure, the Devs may calculate a new rewards system in such a way that the average rewards remain the same.

All that will mean in practice, though, is that corps-level players with custom Mechs like me will make 500,000+/match while New Player Joe in his first trial Mech will make 0-2,000 c-bills for his first 20-50 games.

[MungFuSensei]

Vlad Ward, on 02 December 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Sure, the Devs may calculate a new rewards system in such a way that the average rewards remain the same.

All that will mean in practice, though, is that corps-level players with custom Mechs like me will make 500,000+/match while New Player Joe in his first trial Mech will make 0-2,000 c-bills for his first 20-50 games.

A reworking of what is reward worthy, instead of actual rewards, would be required, then. For instance, instead of a flat rate for spotting, you get a percentage of the payout for damage done while spotting (increasing the possible payout for scouts, the easiest thing for a newb to play). Instead of getting money for kills, you could get money strictly on a damage basis, with a kill resulting in payout based on maximum possible damage against the target (so a headshot would net you as much as picking something apart piece by piece). This would make it so high level players can still get great payouts, without stacking over 200k without premium. No system will be perfect, but it's possible for this one to work just as well as the current one, without the problem of farmers.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Vlad Ward, on 02 December 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Guaranteed c-bills for a loss in a trial Mech are the only reason 90% of the game's incoming userbase will ever see the inside of an owned Mech.

They could, you know, come up with the small amount of money required to buy a Jenner. Presumably this "90%" of players has enough disposable income for gaming rigs and broadband, so why not a few bucks for the MWO devs?

[Kavoh]

Unfortunately all the "safety catches" the trial mechs have is all for the sake of helping the new players get on their feet. There will always be jack***es abusing these catches and the only real way is the threat of long term/permanent bans. But then you have the issue of having to investigate each individual case. Its a vicious cycle.

[MungFuSensei]

Kavoh, on 02 December 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

Unfortunately all the "safety catches" the trial mechs have is all for the sake of helping the new players get on their feet. There will always be jack***es abusing these catches and the only real way is the threat of long term/permanent bans. But then you have the issue of having to investigate each individual case. Its a vicious cycle.

A simple way to fix this is add a "newb" modifier on top of everything else in my proposed payment scheme, another multiplier for those who are using trial mechs who also do NOT actually own a mech. The first time a player buys a mech, he loses that bonus forever. Helps a new player get on their feet, but then disappears afterwards to prevent abuse.

[M Jordanus Sicarius]

No the simplest way is to make conditions. Cause one damage or stand in the enemy base for any period of time and you recieve the guarenteed C-Bills.

If you don't play premade, guarenteed c-bills are the only reason you actually have c-bills. You'd die and lose far too often to make any money.

[MungFuSensei]

M Jordanus Sicarius, on 02 December 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

No the simplest way is to make conditions. Cause one damage or stand in the enemy base for any period of time and you recieve the guarenteed C-Bills.

If you don't play premade, guarenteed c-bills are the only reason you actually have c-bills. You'd die and lose far too often to make any money.

I rarely play premade (only a group of 2 when I do), and sometimes I roll a trial mech as I never own more than one mech at a time. I can consistently get 3-400 on my bad days with trials. On the surface, your idea sounds great, but that wouldn't prevent farming, just lower the rate of payment, as you could easily bot movement paths on the different maps, link to an aimbot, fire off one shot, then suicide. Quite a bit more complicated, but not out of the realm of possibility, so farming wouldn't stop. Still, good to hear more ideas. Keep 'em coming.

[Zero Neutral]

90% seems to be the go to percentage...

[Zeke Steiner]

Hey, how about just having a checkbox at the end of the match, if your entire team gives you an x, than you get no c-bills. Than hand out the same rewards and bonuses as usual.

Edited by Zeke Steiner, 02 December 2012 - 04:02 PM.