51 replies to this topic

[Master Q]

Ok, I think we'll probably get a concurrence that the economy needs tweaking currently. But I'll offer my perspective. It's just my perspective but here it is.

Up until yesterday, I had the Founder's bonus running. I deliberately left my timer off for now so that I can get "base user" comparisons.
My build for this analysis is an all-lasers build of a Centurion CN9-AL. It has Ferro-Fibrous armor and Endo-Steel, but not Artemis nor +40% Heat Sinks (I refuse to call those bastardizations "double"). The engine's a standard, non-XL 215.

Now, here's the basics:

When using my Founder's bonus, I was generally getting ~50k in C-bills "profit" for a loss, and ~100k for a win. These did not tend to vary much whether I died or lived.

After the new patch, turning Founders bonus off, I can get ~60k for a win. If I lose and die, I can expect to lose ~30k in c-bills. If I lose and don't die, I can expect to mostly break even.

This isn't a Heavy. It's not an Assault. It's a freaking medium mech, and it's one of the "stock" ones that was cheap to buy to start with. Plus, it's a non-ammo version.

I don't like to say this, but I agree with others who have said it; there needs to be a heavy tweak to the economy. At the current rates, to "upgrade" to a Heavy playing just this one 'Mech would take me probably 3 days worth of marathon gaming. If I want to try to level my way up the skills tree, I'll have to buy a Centurion variant that costs an insane number of C-bills due to coming stock with an XL engine, which means even more grinding.

I recognize that things shouldn't come instantaneously, really I do. But I also see where there's a problem. The current economy encourages suicide-farming and AFK farming in the trial mechs; it does so because the players doing it can actually be assured of making a C-bill profit on each drop, while players who use a legit mech can't.

Now the important part: constructively, how to fix it.

Here's my thought on the matter - I think you could do this with a few tweaks.

#1 - Trial Mechs: 0 C-bills for a loss. Period. There's no repair/rearm fees on them anyways, so they are either considered "rentals" or else considered loaners. If you want to metagame it or justify it in fiction, then say the real owner of the 'Mech took whatever C-bills there were to pay for the repairs on the mech you borrowed. And when the suicide farmers and AFK farmers see that they can't just drop over and over and not play for real in the Trial mechs, we will see a LOT less of them handicapping their own teams in that way.

#2 - Win cash for normal Mechs: double it. Assume a normal player's able to win roughly 50% of the time in pick-up groups. Target them, because you're trying to get normal players into the game anyways, right?

The problem I have right now with the system is that I can have one win, two losses in a stock Heavy and be set back easily 100k C-bills. Tweak it to the point where one win, two losses breaks even and to where a player with a 50% win ratio, even if they die while winning (hey it happens, I've played delay-man to allow teammates to cap a base or been the scout in one of the tunnels who gets overwhelmed because the other team was on a tunnel bum-rush strategy), sees that they are making progress.

[Elandyll]

Welcome back to non Premium reality. It is indeed sad, but all too indicative of PGI's suspected Greed (all but forcing players who want to play in some decently decked out Mechs -not even crazy pimped like tons of Artemis LRMs/ endo / DHS / etc.- to either use premium or grind on Trial mechs to support their expenses).

[Impossible Wasabi]

The Space Pope is planning to commence a crusade against the ingame economy due to the threat it poses to new players actually continuing to play the game.

All who participate will be offered indulgences for their sins.

Edited by Merlevade, 30 November 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[Taizan]

Merlevade, on 30 November 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

The Space Pope is planning to commence a crusade against the ingame economy due to the threat it poses to new players actually continuing to play the game.

In this case, I guess I am a sinner for I am not suffering under the economy model, not one bit. Others who have not factored in the economics of maintaining an expensive mech with expensive equipment are, but that is based on their own decision.

I'll agree this much:
Economy needs constant monitoring & tweaking, new player experience needs changes.

[Stormur Herra]

OP:

While I generally agree with the top half of your post, you clearly didn't think this through. Your #1 fix could single-handedly murder the game. Imagine a new player trying to grind their first mech. They're in a bad trial mech, new to the game. On top of the frustration, they are earning nothing 75% of the time. They quit long before they can even afford a commando.

[Child3k]

The economy needs some work. But I don't think the situation is as bad as pictured in the opening post. I myself pilot HBKs and AWSs - all without premium time or what not. My only chassis which can cause me to actually loose cbills is my AWS-9M with DHS and XL Engine. But thats just something like 10k that I loose and only on a really bad loss were I die and get heavily damaged - if I die by just getting cored without loosing limbs and stuff I usually break even or make a little plus.

That beeing said - I think the repair-cost for FF needs to be adressed. It seems too high and most ppl who complain about repair-bills seem to use FF.

Edited by Child3k, 30 November 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[Quad Ace]

Financial Management is just as much a part of BT as accurate laser fire. Want to make bunches of money? Play a cheap mech. Want to play a badass mech? Don't expect to make huge profits. Endo and DHS are cheap to run; FF, Artemis, and XL aren't.

Don't assume that the economy is metagame, it's not. Is it perfectly tuned? No, but it's not too far off. Swap your FF for DHS and you'll see your profits go up.

Your first suggestion is rediculous.

Your second suggestion is at least a possibility, but I think it's a knee jerk reaction. How about pay the losing team for kills, assists, and damage the same way the winning team gets paid. All of a sudden people have an incentive to play well even if they lose, and those who do are at least turning a profit (albeit smaller).

[Joseph Mallan]

The mistake you made with the Centurion is you gave it Ferro. Ferro is more expensive to repair/replace. I could agree to maybe a nudge to the victory earnings of a trial Mech win or lose. But other than that... no other perk for using a loaner Mech.

[Lefty Lucy]

I have a CTF-2X build that I do much better in than any other build. It also costs 100k-130k to repair and rearm. If I maintain premium time, I can handle that cost fine. If I do not, then I cannot.

What's that phrase... pay to... pay to... something.

[Cyndle]

The amount earned is far to low. I do believe they need to increase it in a way that actualy promotes active play. The current system gives 2k per kill/assist and 10 per damage. My recomendation would be to increase this to 7500 per kill/assist and 100 per damage

[stjobe]

I too left my premium button alone, just to see what it was like.
I too play a CN9, although an ammo-dependent -A version (UAC/5, 3xSSRM-2, 2xML).
I too have Endo-Steel. I also have Double Heat Sinks.
I do not have Ferro-fibrous armour, nor do I have an XL engine.

I do not lose money on that 'mech, even if I get cored. Possibly I could, if I shot off all my ammo at nothing, then ran and got cored without ever targeting anything or shooting at an actual enemy. Haven't tried that, so I won't say it isn't possible, but regular games? I don't lose money.

How do you do it?

Edit: I'm not saying the economy doesn't need adjusting, it does. And the new player experience can do with a lot of adjustments to make it easier on the new players and to stop the farming. I just don't see why I don't lose money on that 'mech when you claim to do with an almost identical one?

Edited by stjobe, 30 November 2012 - 08:55 AM.

[Vermaxx]

The pay for non-premium time was too low for me, I decided this within 5 matches of the button being added. I turned my time on after being one of the people who demanded the button.

I've been saying since closed, that in my opinion premium time is not optional - it is mandatory. Obviously that is an opinion, but I really don't think the pay levels without premium are effective for anything more than getting your feet wet and buying that first ride. It certainly would be absolute hell to grind out three Atlases on free pay.

Of course, someone will post here and say they did it and I am stupid. Yes, the pay is reasonable if you win most matches (probably on some kind of team). For the people who pug for whatever reason, and take a higher percentage of losses, free play is really not conducive to enjoying the game. This is probably intentional, and I have no problem dropping 15 dollars here and there when I really want to grind for a month.

Perhaps they should lower the mc-to-premium-time ratio to make it more accessible to players. That might boost sales. If someone could say, buy a month of premium for less than ten dollars a month...I think a lot more people would do that.

[Felbombling]

The reward system is stacked to promote farming. Take that 75000 C-Bills given out, win or lose, and instead make it 5000. Then up the Kill and Assist rewards to 5000 each. Now double the C-Bills for everything else... damage done, spot assits, base capture, etc. Suddenly you are into a situation where participation determines C-Bill payout, not appearing on the battlefield.

Would anyone honestly write a script that rolled battles for 5000 C-Bills a pop? Possible, but I doubt it.

[8RoundsRapid]

I also run a CN9-AL, w/ ES, no dhs, no FF, and no XL. I've added an ams, upgraded my 2 ct lasers to med pulse, and replaced my arm ppc w/ 2 med lasers. Also, i dropped the LRM10 and put on 2 LRM5's. I designed this mech as a low cost, low tech mech that would be relatively cheap to repair, and for versatility.

On a loss, I make ~50K and a win is around ~120K. Approximate numbers, of course. I auto repair, but dont auto reload.

I play only a few matches a day, and sometimes go days between playing at all. After farming enough cbills initially w/ trials to buy and upgrade this CN9, I have subsequently made enough to buy my first of four cataphract last night.

I have been in the game since it went to 'open beta.'

I know the cbill rewards seem kinda small, especially when you have one of those days where you cant seem to get a win, but honestly, for a guy who doesnt play that much, I have been able to afford 2 mechs so far w/ cbills only. If i was a more dedicated player, I would have all my phracts by now.

I guess my point is that while I wouldn't mind a slight bump to cbills earned, I dont think the rate of grind is nearly as horrible as the OP states.

[SiorAlpin Wolf]

i have been doing pugs all day today (played about 4 hrs straight) in my founders C1 cat, loaded out with 2 large lasers, 2 medium lasers and 2 srm 4's and an xl engine endo and double heat sinks, of which i think is a fair build, BUT

this is the finances for 5 runs, some with recorded kills and assists

1. win 176,618 repair 91,691
2. loss 111,464 repair 85,055
3. win 156,174 repair 72,598
4. win 205,282 repair 48,022
5. loss 101,013 repair 62,273

Total winnings = 750,551
Total repairs = 359,639
Total earnings = 390,912

This was after an hours worth of playing
The cheapest mech is the Commando Com-1B at 1,694.542 c-bills
So lets round up my earnings to 400k
To be able to buy the cheapest mech you need to be grinding away for at least 6 hours with mostly wins, as a pug. Remeber i was in a founders mech Cata C1(f) so i had the founders bonus, if i didnt have that given the current state of the economics i think i would have given up trying to go for the heavy or assault mechs as they seem out of reach for the non founder player.

The winnings of 205k was when i killed ithink it was 4 mechs some how i realy dont think that this is how the Dev's or PGI want the game to run, if im wrong and this is exactly how they want the game to play i cant see the population of the game exceeding much beyond those that have invested in buying a founders pack.

As for joe bloggs who comes across the game and downloads it to see what it is like, i seriously cant see them playing it for long before giving up and turning to something else, yes its free to play but if you want to get anywhere in the game you will have to pay pay pay. So is this game becoming a real money oriented game, yes it is as it stands at the moment. Even as a founder i can lose money by the way the economics are setup at this present time if this is the way it is going to be then i cant see me wasting anymore time playing it. Its just not worth it sry Dev's but at this rate i think more will leave the game than continue to play.

Edited by SiorAlpin Wolf, 30 November 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

SiorAlpin Wolf, on 30 November 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

i have been doing pugs all day today (played about 4 hrs straight) in my founders C1 cat, loaded out with 2 large lasers, 2 medium lasers and 2 srm 4's and an xl engine endo and double heat sinks, of which i think is a fair build, BUT

this is the finances for 5 runs, some with recorded kills and assists

1. win 176,618 repair 91,691
2. loss 111,464 repair 85,055
3. win 156,174 repair 72,598
4. win 205,282 repair 48,022
5. loss 101,013 repair 62,273

Total winnings = 750,551
Total repairs = 359,639
Total earnings = 390,912

This was after an hours worth of playing
The cheapest mech is the Commando Com-1B at 1,694.542 c-bills
So lets round up my earnings to 400k
To be able to buy the cheapest mech you need to be grinding away for at least 6 hours with mostly wins, as a pug. Remeber i was in a founders mech Cata C1(f) so i had the founders bonus, if i didnt have that given the current state of the economics i think i would have given up trying to go for the heavy or assault mechs as they seem out of reach for the non founder player.

The winnings of 205k was when i killed ithink it was 4 mechs some how i realy dont think that this is who the Dev's or PGI want the game to run, if im wrong and this is exactly how they want the game to play i cant see the population of the game exceeding much beyond those that have invested in buying a founders pack.

Yep, without running the founder's mech, your overall winnings would have been only 240k. Which is very far from the "1 million c-bills per hour" that the devs claimed was a bench mark back in CB.

[JPsi]

I'd ask that you try a build for testing these profits without running Ferro Fibrous. Its expensive to repair, rarely a good choice on most mechs.

My experience has generally been different, I run a Hunchback 4-SP and a cataphract 1X. Mostly Energy weapons in each so I dont have large rearm costs. That being said, on a loss with death I'll normally earn 30k, up to 150K on a win but normally about 100k. This number did change with using the ballistic/missile heavy variants of each, however I never found myself losing C-Bills on a loss. It seems the larger part of the equation is the "tech"/upgrades used and not the variants themselves.

From what I've been able to ascertain, the "swing" items that seem to really hurt a players farming are : FF, XL engines and artemis. Try redoing your said test without using FF armor and see if its really so bad.

[Xenon Codex]

Honestly, I don't see this "free to play" system as much different than the old shareware models of yesteryear. It's a chance to demo the game without monetary investment. We all know it takes money to keep a business up and running, not to mention continued development. I don't expect to have a "great" experience playing for free, nor should anyone else IMO.


What I expect is to be able to see the potential fun that can be had if I do pay. I think this game mostly provides that right now, though there could definitely be some improvements, such as access to a virtual MechBay.

I grinded out the trial mechs to afford a Dragon over a couple of weeks. Thought that would be the bomb, but realized without upgrades and with repair costs, I really needed Premium bonuses to get very far in a timely manner. (FWIW I never lost money playing the Dragon) By that time I had seen enough of the game to warrant the cost of premium time. So I did exactly what the developers wanted me to do, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I wish them luck in the coming months and hope the the game continues to improve. Keep me interested and I'll keep buying premium time.

[Master Q]

Stormur Herra, on 30 November 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

On top of the frustration, they are earning nothing 75% of the time. They quit long before they can even afford a commando.

But when they win, they're winning much bigger than they would have before and see the progress. They'll keep going and still get a 'Mech of their own in the same running time.

PLUS, they're no longer having to play the game of "drop... how many of these guys are AFK... how many of them are going to shoot themselves to suicide... am I in an 8v4 or 8v3 game this time that won't be fun?"

When they lose, at least they went down playing with fair numbers. When they win, they see the progress. It will make the new player experience MORE fun - I've already had one friend give up on this game and yell at me for recommending it because they got fed up with the AFK and suicide farmers.

Edited by Master Q, 30 November 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Stormur Herra]

Yeah, that first commando is really more like 5m when you realize that that the stock commando without at least an XL200 engine is pretty pointless. A light mech that doesn't go over 130 kmph is basically asking to be shot to pieces by something bigger.