9 replies to this topic

[Khanahar]

Hey, not a new player at all, but had a few questions maybe some helpful folks know the answer to:

How do critical hits effect built in equipment in MWO?

What about engines? My understanding is that they are rolled normally, take damage up to 15, but have no effect if destroyed? Is this true?
What about Gyros?
Cockpits/Sensors/Actuators/etc.

I have generally been hesitant to put ammo in CT, but if gyro and engine crits are rolled normally, it's actually very safe... unlikely to concentrate 10 damage in any one crit slot before you lose the CT anyway.

And if you have an ammo bin in the head, it is guaranteed to be the first thing hit by a critical head hit? Not that it probably matters, but still.

Also, is there still the same chance of ammo detonation no matter whether the component was destroyed or the bin took a crit hit?

Thanks!

[Redshift2k5]

MWO does not have critical hits on engines. Non-removable items such as gyros, actuators, cockpits, and sensors do not have critical hits. I do not know if any of these are "re-rolled" or not, though.

Ammo dos not explode 100% of the time when it is critted, so even if an ammo bin in a head is critted it is not going to explode every time. Not sure how the rate of explosion is affected by a direct crit or the section being destroyed.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 01 June 2013 - 05:01 PM.

[Koniving]

Actuators, gyros, etc. were disabled in closed beta because "Betty" the computer voice was non-existent. When damage was taken, mechs would start to 'turn' left or right even while going straight, or the aim of an arm weapon would be off from the cirlce (o) crosshair when it came to actuator damage. Gyros made mechs fall over at the slightest touch when damaged. Those who refused to pay for repairs continued to have these issues. Many who didn't know what was going on called them bugs and the forum flooded. PGI flicked a switch and it all went poof.

Personally I'd like to see them come back but it'll be a long while after launch before it comes back. Even then it might only appear in a hardcore mode of sorts due to the number of complaints versus number of praises.

Engine crits were never enabled, thankfully, although Bryan Ekman has said in several Ask the Devs answer threads that eventually it will be turned on after a "complete overhaul of weapon balancing" and "Launch." So expect it sometime by December?

In the meantime you're generally safe.

The consumption of ammunition generally (but not always) follows this pattern: Head, Center torso, RT, LT, RA, LA, RL, LL. Where T is torso, A is arm, and L is leg.

Be advised because of the way ammo gets consumed you do not want to put ammo into a left shield-arm, as you're about guaranteed to get an ammo explosion.

For ways to protect yourself from impending explosions with high ammo counts, consider this post which explains the concept of Crit Padding to protect your crit slots. Keep in mind this protects you exceptionally well against normal weapons, however high crit seekers are only delayed from getting to your ammo. Protect yourself from shotguns and MGs by staying away from them.

[scJazz]

Hint: Everyone always puts ammo in the head, CT, and if your not a light mech (legs). Head and CT are obvious since if you are taking internal damage there you either got really unlucky or are about to die anyway. Legs... whelp Koniving and others think it is a bad idea but I can still count on 1 hand the number of times I've lost a leg. I've been head shot more often. Although yesterday I did take a leg crit to ammo and have it explode with predictable results.

[Khanahar]

Thanks for some helpful information. A few clarification questions:

Koniving, on 01 June 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

Actuators, gyros, etc. were disabled in closed beta because "Betty" the computer voice was non-existent. When damage was taken, mechs would start to 'turn' left or right even while going straight, or the aim of an arm weapon would be off from the cirlce (o) crosshair when it came to actuator damage. Gyros made mechs fall over at the slightest touch when damaged. Those who refused to pay for repairs continued to have these issues. Many who didn't know what was going on called them bugs and the forum flooded. PGI flicked a switch and it all went poof.

Personally I'd like to see them come back but it'll be a long while after launch before it comes back. Even then it might only appear in a hardcore mode of sorts due to the number of complaints versus number of praises.

Engine crits were never enabled, thankfully, although Bryan Ekman has said in several Ask the Devs answer threads that eventually it will be turned on after a "complete overhaul of weapon balancing" and "Launch." So expect it sometime by December?

In the meantime you're generally safe.

The consumption of ammunition generally (but not always) follows this pattern: Head, Center torso, RT, LT, RA, LA, RL, LL. Where T is torso, A is arm, and L is leg.

Be advised because of the way ammo gets consumed you do not want to put ammo into a left shield-arm, as you're about guaranteed to get an ammo explosion.

For ways to protect yourself from impending explosions with high ammo counts, consider this post which explains the concept of Crit Padding to protect your crit slots. Keep in mind this protects you exceptionally well against normal weapons, however high crit seekers are only delayed from getting to your ammo. Protect yourself from shotguns and MGs by staying away from them.

Question 1: Isn't the ammo detonation rate (from one of the ATDs) 10% no matter whether the component is blown up or the item is just killed from crits? If so, are MGs actually any more dangerous than anything that actually does damage?

2: I get that actuators and engines etc. don't currently a gameplay effect, but do they still soak hits (padding criticals)? If I take a single PPC crit to the CT, does it have a 100% or a 17% chance of killing one of my two MPLs? I read somewhere that Engines can take 15 points of damage... can they still soak that even if the result of going to 0 is nothing in-game?

[Krazy Kat]

It was my understanding that all internal components can absorb critical hits, with a possible exception for CASE.
I could be wrong though.

[Redshift2k5]

Khanahar, on 02 June 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Thanks for some helpful information. A few clarification questions:



Question 1: Isn't the ammo detonation rate (from one of the ATDs) 10% no matter whether the component is blown up or the item is just killed from crits? If so, are MGs actually any more dangerous than anything that actually does damage?

2: I get that actuators and engines etc. don't currently a gameplay effect, but do they still soak hits (padding criticals)? If I take a single PPC crit to the CT, does it have a 100% or a 17% chance of killing one of my two MPLs? I read somewhere that Engines can take 15 points of damage... can they still soak that even if the result of going to 0 is nothing in-game?

I think ammo detonation risk is equal for both being critted as well as being in a destroyed section.

We know that Endo, FF, and CASE are re-rolled (or rather, we are told that they are). I know what you mean, do engines/gyros/etc crit pad. and that's something that is going to be very, very hard to test (because crits are random, you woud need to do a very large number of tests to look for discrete trends)

This may be a topic best asked in the next Ask the Devs. If I don't know, and Koniving doesn't know, and if it appears virtually untestable, I doubt anyone can offer a satisfactory answer.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 02 June 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[Koniving]

Khanahar, on 02 June 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Thanks for some helpful information. A few clarification questions:



Question 1: Isn't the ammo detonation rate (from one of the ATDs) 10% no matter whether the component is blown up or the item is just killed from crits? If so, are MGs actually any more dangerous than anything that actually does damage?

2: I get that actuators and engines etc. don't currently a gameplay effect, but do they still soak hits (padding criticals)? If I take a single PPC crit to the CT, does it have a 100% or a 17% chance of killing one of my two MPLs? I read somewhere that Engines can take 15 points of damage... can they still soak that even if the result of going to 0 is nothing in-game?

1) The concept of what was given in the crit padding explanation is mostly to protect you from regular firepower so the one AC/20 doesn't have a guaranteed chance to destroy your ammo on the first shot or two.

The risk is about equal for every ton of ammo that is destroyed, regardless of if by crit damage or by limb destruction. So it's 10% chance from crits, yes.

I feel that when the limb is destroyed, not all of the crit items seem to actually die with it. Yes, they are destroyed but by the fact the limb no longer exists rather than losing their crit health. I think there's a surge of x amount of damage when the limb is destroyed and this gives a final chance for ammunition detonation. I know that the fewer tons of ammo you have in an unprotected limb, the more likely they explode. It's been extremely rare that an ammo-loaded arm has exploded on me when it's filled to the point of nearly overflowing.

Thus, I believe (but don't know for sure) that they receive a surplus of damage. Worst case scenario, I'm one lucky person when carrying that much ammo.

The reason I believe this is when you consider the Swift Dakka build mentioned in the linked thread, there's 4 tons of ammo, and a little less than 3 tons left when I lose the arm and subsequently die from the ammo explosion in the video. Lose the arm, I go boom. Happens every single time. Every time.

But with the arm chuck full of AC/2 ammo until there's no slots left, side torso fully loaded with ammo and heatsinks, and a few extra in the CT, I could lose the arm and out of the 7 or so times I've lost that arm with the fully loaded setup, only once has losing the arm full of ammo detonated on me. That time I had less than 100 shots of AC/2 ammo left.

Ammunition is consumed from your center to your right to your left in all but two or three chassis (The Centurion is one of the oddballs, don't know why). (You can check your ammo consumption by using Left CTRL and your mouse. Check the screen displaying your ammo and components. The order it cycles starting from your head is the order ammo storage is consumed).

So, to summarize: In a Dragon 5N's right arm with 3 AC/2s

• I go boom every time I lose the arm with 4 or fewer tons of ammo in the arm. Every time. Without fail.
  
• I have only exploded once out of about 7 times of losing the arm with 6 tons of ammo in there. (I believe at the time I was about out of ammo when it happened).
  
• If you're concerned about how your ammo is going to be consumed, check out the screens in your cockpit; one lists your ammunition tonnage. The order it cycles starting from your head, is the order it consumes your ammo.

1-B ) To the second part of this question -- are machine guns potentially the most dangerous weapon in the game? Truth be told they were frightening before. Now they are much more dangerous to ammunition-carrying mechs. However, until actuators, engines, etc. get activated, MGs are not much of a threat to the average mech. I've read the same things. I also know that if it weren't for the lowered crit damage per bullet, a 6 MG Jagermech could do a maximum (if every bullet triple crits which will never happen) of 14.4 damage per second. I don't recall what the actual maximum possible is now; so if you find the revised MG crits (likely a command chair post by Paul on weapon balancing), do link me to it.

(The equation used is 0.8 damage per bullet, times 10 bullets per second [stated rate but my MG actually fires between 9 and 13 per second] * six MGs = your base damage per second. 4.8. Before you'd deal that as a minimum with crit damage, up to 3 times that. 4.8 times 3 is 14.4 maximum possible crit damage per second using the old system. Note that MGs do not use the same single to triple crit damage now.)

2) Currently actuators, Endo structure, Ferro armor, Stealth Armor (when it comes), Engines, Gyros, etc., they do NOT crit pad. Nor will they until we are permitted to target engines, gyros, actuators. By simply being disabled, they are ignored or as Redshift said "re-rolled." I'm certain that in terms of the crit damage script engines, gyros, and actuators are simply commented out with a little // to make them untouchable. To be specific, Bryan Ekman or Paul Inouye once said they "Do not count" when he first explained crit-seeking weaponry.

It's funny actually, that missiles get splash damage. From what I read on this 'help' for table top battletech players, we should use missiles and LB-10s as crit seekers once the armor is gone. Then MWO has something similar, but allocates machine guns instead of missiles.

As Red also mentioned, much of this is about impossible to test except in terms of ammo-stuffing, which you would have to deliberately let an ammo-filled limb be destroyed time and time again.

------------------

I also wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in an explanation given at this time even by the developers, as it's recently been implied that all weapons may soon receive an overhaul -- which would make sense, given that some ATDs ago, Bryan said we'd be getting weapon variants. It is likely that with this, the current crit system may get changed a bit as some may be more crit-damage-worthy than others.

Using Autocannon 20s as an example of the variants we may expect in the near future, the Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 would obviously be different from the AC/20 Crusher Super Heavy Cannon and the AC/20 Chemjet Gun.

Of the above, examples include the AC/20 Crusher Super Heavy Cannon firing a rapid burst of ten shots (per trigger and recycle) doing 2 damage each totalling 20. The AC/20 Chemjet Gun fires much slower but does much more damage per shell.

AC/20 example source. Personally I've been looking forward to the variants for some time. Lordred, whose name is frequently mentioned by me or near me, once said something I found to be funny and very likely to occur:

Quote

I have this distinct feeling that every weapon we have will be put down as being by a single manufacturer, and we'd have to go and buy the new variants.

PGI will try to keep as true to listed variants as possible within reason.
According to Sarna, all Type 20 autocannons are the same weight, have the same crit slots and generate the same heat. However their ranges appear to vary and so would the damage spread (due to using 'multiple shots' versus just one).

Edited by Koniving, 02 June 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Selfish]

If you critically destroy the ammo or destroy the component the ammo is housed in you trigger an ammo explosion chance. All ammo, sans gauss, has a 10% chance to explode when destroyed--both critically and normally. The only case in which an ammo explosion chance won't be triggered is if you stored ammo in the arm and lose the corresponding side torso. The arm will be knocked off and any ammo in it is safe from explosion, though it will still be destroyed.

Endo/FF/CASE/Internal Equipment do not factor into crit rolls. To my knowledge there is no such thing as a re-roll, which just seems like it would take up unnecessary space in frames.

The engine does have a healthpool of 15 points--you can check it out in the RAW files. It doesn't have an effect or announcement when it's destroyed, but it is effectively buffer/padding. This was confirmed by the Devs in charge of the system, and it was easily confirmable by players at the time since the destruction of items was integral to the R&R system. You could physically see your destroyed engine in the mech after a match, and you could drop into new matches with it destroyed and have no issues.

It is fairly safe to store ammo in the CT under certain circumstances, but this is a fairly opinionated subject. From my reasoning, the first scenario for storage is if you're going to be chewing through it quickly and can't use your arms to store the excess tonnage--particularly useful in the AC/40 Jager.

The second reason is almost entirely theoretical and just as situational. It comes into play if you are going to be storing extra DHS in your engine. It appears as though they add their original crit size--allowing players to inflate their CTs crit sizes to rather large proportions. e.g. An AS7 with 2 tons of ammo in its CT, STD350, and 4 stored DHS will have a collective buffer of 55 HP @ 18/20 criticals [40 HP and 12 crits of which are DHS, and 15 HP and 6 crits of which are Engine), while each ton of Ammo (10 HP) will have a 1/20 chance of being struck by a crit. Unless your opponent is built to seek crits, they will nearly always kill you before getting near your ammo.

I wrote a guide on crits back in December and have kept it updated with every patch (generally a day or two after). If you're interested in crits it's a decent place to scan through.

Edited by Selfish, 02 June 2013 - 03:21 PM.

[Khanahar]

Really cool stuff and thanks to everybody (I have a few new bookmarks from this thread). Kinda thinking Redshift is right that I should ask about engine crit-padding in ATD, given that Selfish and Koniving disagree on the point and both cite developer info. The engine HS thing is crazy if true...

Kinda wish the testing grounds would let me build 'mechs to shoot at (or just be confirmed to be working properly.)