263 replies to this topic

[Alex Wolfe]

LaserAngel, on 05 December 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

That's the joke.

SHS handles T1 just fine, even those PPCs. You have to get DHS just to make T1 viable in MWO.

Precisely. Heat sinks in MWO are lagging at least one tier behind their appropriate tech, which means there isn't a single stock config working right - T1 configs get heatstroke on T1 sinks, T2 configs (9M) choke on T2 sinks. We have to resort to boating poordubs to field outdated technology.

Nerf the weapons if they get out of hand, but fix the heat. It can only get worse from now if left alone.

[MustrumRidcully]

LaserAngel, on 05 December 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

After seeming some more replies, it does feel like another bogeyman. The comparison to Gauss Rifle levels of damage means more than the Small/Medium Lasers are the problem at no the Guass, cats aside.

That or in some perfect, no lag internal build where everyone just stands still an Alpha Strikes it works. Drop the heat capacity buff from DHS to 1.0.


T1 Tech in this game DOES require Double Heatsinks to be viable unless it's a Gausscat. I can only wonder how many Clan mechs will just keel over every few seconds from the current heat system. Better range and damage become irrelevant then.

Clan Tech has the advantage that it is superior in every way. So yes, Clan ER PPCs will be freakingly hot - but not hotter than IS ER PPCs. And they weigh less, require less crits, and deal more damage. The Clan configs won't work, but the Clan tech will still be superior.

[Glythe]

The real solution to double heat sinks was their accidental implementation in the first place...


Make engine heat sinks 1.4 and extra heat sinks double. That means lights/meds actually have to add heat sinks to get a good benefit.

When there was a brief moment when the DHS was in game before they changed it everything seemed fine. You could actually use some of the heavier weapons and it was nice.


The alternative is to make DHS scale based on mech size. Let's face it size matters when it comes to physics. Give two mechs the same engine and the one with more surface area dissipates more heat in less time. Simple.

Give lights 1.4, meds 1.6, heavies 1.8 and assaults 2.0

The extra nerfing of lasers just made the problem even worse and you can't even really hope to use 4x med pulse lasers anymore.

There's something messed up when a light can do more dps than an assault with the cheesy 1.4 heat sinks (look at a Jenner with 6 lasers vs an Atlas K... so sad).

[BCOVertigo]

Team Leader, on 03 December 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Thats completely different. All they have to do is tweak a few digits for a day or two. If the forums explode in QQ, rstchet it down a few points. Thats what we beta testers should be doing, not letting a few devs messing around decide the permanent fate of the game because they didnt bother to ask anyone else.

Man, I didn't even get past this guy's quote before deciding this thread was a poor use of my time.

[Lyteros]

Glythe, on 06 December 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

The real solution to double heat sinks was their accidental implementation in the first place...


Make engine heat sinks 1.4 and extra heat sinks double. That means lights/meds actually have to add heat sinks to get a good benefit.

When there was a brief moment when the DHS was in game before they changed it everything seemed fine. You could actually use some of the heavier weapons and it was nice.


The alternative is to make DHS scale based on mech size. Let's face it size matters when it comes to physics. Give two mechs the same engine and the one with more surface area dissipates more heat in less time. Simple.

Give lights 1.4, meds 1.6, heavies 1.8 and assaults 2.0

The extra nerfing of lasers just made the problem even worse and you can't even really hope to use 4x med pulse lasers anymore.

There's something messed up when a light can do more dps than an assault with the cheesy 1.4 heat sinks (look at a Jenner with 6 lasers vs an Atlas K... so sad).

DHS are not a fix to a broken heat system, they are like putting a pain relieving bandaid on a tumor. It's just some comfort.

And your suggestion with 1.4 engine 2.0 outside would IMHO make no positive change. Heavys and Assaults are morerestricted by critspace then by weight. If you only make 2.0 DHS outside the engine, you have a maximum of 4 to 6 DHS working 2.0 before you have run out of critspace. Lights on the other hand are already so restricted by weight, that they wount fit the large LRM / Ballistic critspace/weight monsters (apart from troll-gauss-ravens and such) and fare quite well with small to medium weapons, which produce not so much heat. They can way easier stuff DHS into the mech.

I very much like the size dependant heat you suggest, but I fear if PGI tries to implement it, judging by the current bug status and the history of MWO DHS... we'll have heat creating DHS that instantly make you explode, then no heat dissiapantion at all, and maybe then we have that system working.

This could also be expanded to CLAN DHS which will then be 2,5 or something (only on clan mechs of course)

Edited by Lyteros, 07 December 2012 - 08:45 AM.

[Lanessar]

After seeing a number of spreadsheets, maths, etc. I'm leaning toward the "medium lasers are broken" idea, rather than "fix the heat system". There is one weapon which does exponentially better under 2.0 heat sinks as far as damage, time to overheat, and DPS.

The medium laser. In fact, that's the weapon brought up repeatedly as how 2.0 DHS are OP. No other weapons are being thrown in the ring as being "unbalanced" when 2.0 DHS are introduced.

So.... if one weapon is the issue, then wouldn't you balance the one weapon? I mean, rather than make an upgrade very unviable to a whole class of mechs. Just saying.

Edited by Lanessar, 10 December 2012 - 07:20 AM.

[Nonsense]

Team Leader, on 03 December 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

All they have to do is tweak a few digits for a day or two. If the forums explode in QQ, rstchet it down a few points.

Yes, because the devs should make all their decisions based on forum QQ...

INTERNET SARCASM ALERT.

I already use DHS on almost every one of my mechs. If they were 2.0 I'd simply fire my lasers more often and heat would cease to be an issue for me in this game. That's probably a stupid change for the devs to make since one of the mechs I'm referring to is a 5xLL cataphract.

It doesn't need to be tested by us because the devs already know it's a dumb idea without wider testing.

[MustrumRidcully]

Nonsense, on 10 December 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Yes, because the devs should make all their decisions based on forum QQ...

INTERNET SARCASM ALERT.

I already use DHS on almost every one of my mechs. If they were 2.0 I'd simply fire my lasers more often and heat would cease to be an issue for me in this game. That's probably a stupid change for the devs to make since one of the mechs I'm referring to is a 5xLL cataphract.

It doesn't need to be tested by us because the devs already know it's a dumb idea without wider testing.

It actually needs a more thorough analysis however than just saying "Oh, look, build X with medium lasers is OP with Double Heat Sinks! Nerf Double Heat SInks!" They could have looked what other weapons would be OP with DHS.

Gauss? AC/20? AC/10? AC/5? Small Pulse Laser? Medium PUlse Laser? Large Pulse Laser? Large Laser? MG? PPC? ER PPC? AC/5? LRMs? SRMs?


After they've identified that basically ony small, medium and maybe large could be a problem, they could have decided to instead nerf small, mediums and large and give us "real" DHS. Or they could have decided that all the other weapons need a buff under DHS 1.4...

[Nonsense]

Sure, but if it works at 1.4 and they get it so it feels right, why does it matter what the actual amount of heat dissipated is...other than that it's called "double"?

Edited by Nonsense, 10 December 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[Rizzwind]

LaserAngel, on 05 December 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

After seeming some more replies, it does feel like another bogeyman. The comparison to Gauss Rifle levels of damage means more than the Small/Medium Lasers are the problem at no the Guass, cats aside.

That or in some perfect, no lag internal build where everyone just stands still an Alpha Strikes it works. Drop the heat capacity buff from DHS to 1.0.


T1 Tech in this game DOES require Double Heatsinks to be viable unless it's a Gausscat. I can only wonder how many Clan mechs will just keel over every few seconds from the current heat system. Better range and damage become irrelevant then.

Since when? I'm only running one mech with DHS and I wouldn't touch a Gausscat if my life depended on it. If your over heating with DHS its not them your just firing to much for your load out. This is not mech warrior 4. Boating to win is not going to cut it here. I agree a bump to 1.6 would make it feel a little better but 2.0 is going to be over kill for a sim game. Some of you missed the 140 kph 9 med hunch back war. Adding in 2.0 DHS your just changing the Hunchback for a 4x ppc AWS that never over heats.

[Zyllos]

There is another post I started that I created charts in that you could modify the values of heatsinks, ect.

If they want to keep SHS viable (I still do not understand why...), here are the changes I saw that would really matter.

Make DHS only provide 1.0 to capacity heat.

Make both inside/outside DHS engines 1.6 dissipation.

You then start to have this trade off of higher dissipation and capacity with about a 3x increase in heatsink tonnage for SHS (only a few builds can take advantage of this, like a low tonnage engine with a large tonnage mech). Or, you take higher dissipation but lower capacity compared to SHS for a bit more tonnage.

I will pull the numbers and charts once I get home.

Edited by Zyllos, 10 December 2012 - 08:10 AM.

[FerretGR]

Rizzwind, on 10 December 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

Since when? I'm only running one mech with DHS and I wouldn't touch a Gausscat if my life depended on it. If your over heating with DHS its not them your just firing to much for your load out. This is not mech warrior 4. Boating to win is not going to cut it here. I agree a bump to 1.6 would make it feel a little better but 2.0 is going to be over kill for a sim game. Some of you missed the 140 kph 9 med hunch back war. Adding in 2.0 DHS your just changing the Hunchback for a 4x ppc AWS that never over heats.

Pretty sure I put the math for the mythical 4ERPPC AWS in this thread. Maybe instead of spouting the same debunked crap thats been spouted over and over you should have read the thread. With no other weapons, std engine, and max DHS, you can have a 4 ERPPC AWS with 19 DHS. Under full 2.0 DHS, that's 38 points of dissipation, and a 68 cap. That means you alpha twice, overheat for a few seconds, alpha, overheat again, rinse repeat. And that's with the sinks at 2.0.

If you're wrong about the 4ERPPC awesome, probably wrong about the rest of the ill-considered math, no?

Edited by FerretGR, 10 December 2012 - 08:20 AM.

[Heeden]

FerretGR, on 10 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

Pretty sure I put the math for the mythical 4ERPPC AWS in this thread. Maybe instead of spouting the same debunked crap thats been spouted over and over you should have read the thread. With no other weapons, std engine, and max DHS, you can have a 4 ERPPC AWS with 19 DHS. Under full 2.0 DHS, that's 38 points of dissipation, and a 68 cap. That means you alpha twice, overheat for a few seconds, alpha, overheat again, rinse repeat. And that's with the sinks at 2.0.

If you're wrong about the 4ERPPC awesome, probably wrong about the rest of the ill-considered math, no?

With perks it would be a 81.6 cap and dissipating 4.37 (I think you meant 3.8, not 38) so you could easily get a couple of alphas without shutting down, wait a second or two then fire a third.

[MaddMaxx]

MustrumRidcully, on 05 December 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

You have to keep in mind, Maddmax, that these weapons are also considerably heavier than lower range weapons. So they are double-penalized.

While that is true, we are concerned about the HEAT these weapons output and the affects of DHS's on their current state.

I believe the weight of the weapon is also proportional to each other based on one of the factors, range or heat or both, each weapon contains. Don't remember which right off though. Weight is a critical element to keep boating of the more damaging weapons in check.

That double whammy these weapons gets also come with a double bonus. Damage and range. It seems there is a complex set of offsets in play. Deciding how to change that set up is difficult at best.

[MustrumRidcully]

MaddMaxx, on 10 December 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

While that is true, we are concerned about the HEAT these weapons output and the affects of DHS's on their current state.

I believe the weight of the weapon is also proportional to each other based on one of the factors, range or heat or both, each weapon contains. Don't remember which right off though. Weight is a critical element to keep boating of the more damaging weapons in check.

That double whammy these weapons gets also come with a double bonus. Damage and range. It seems there is a complex set of offsets in play. Deciding how to change that set up is difficult at best.

And so it boils down to analyzing the problem not just with counting arguments pro/contra, but actually make a mathematical model.

I did so, I encourage others to do the same and find one that not just simply shows off that PPCs or ER PPCs are decent weapons - but that also reflects game reality.

It's not like I started from the assumption that I must prove that PPCs are underpowered. I just put in the numbers in a model. I didn't know what would result. I had expectations - the Gauss being completely OP, for example. All energy weapons being bad.
I got a Gauss Rifle that was actually underpowered if you had a weapon that had more than 2 ballistic hard points (and one that spread them across mech sections. I got small and medium lasers that were completely out of line. But I saw confirmed that weapons that were deemed underpowered are also underpowered under the analysis. It explained what I saw happening i nthe game - small laser boats with single heat sinks, medium laser boats with double heat sinks, ER weapons and PPCs being ignored.

[LaserAngel]

Rizzwind, on 10 December 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

Since when? I'm only running one mech with DHS and I wouldn't touch a Gausscat if my life depended on it. If your over heating with DHS its not them your just firing to much for your load out. This is not mech warrior 4. Boating to win is not going to cut it here. I agree a bump to 1.6 would make it feel a little better but 2.0 is going to be over kill for a sim game. Some of you missed the 140 kph 9 med hunch back war. Adding in 2.0 DHS your just changing the Hunchback for a 4x ppc AWS that never over heats.

So, I should just use Medium Lasers and ignore mechs with many energy hardpoints? I want to use PPCs and Large Lasers in my Awesomes. I can manage the heat on two of the three of my PPCs and use the third for peak alpha damage only right now under DHS. They should "work" under single heatsinks. I can only imagine what a trial mech with energy weapons must be like. They're assault mechs. They're not fast and not brawlers like the Hunchback 4P which after playing it for the first time in a long time gets way too many shots off running 9 Medium Lasers.

PGI should take a look at Small/Medium Lasers in more depth. The PPC does not need another heat reduction. Increase the damage (11-12) and the cooldown slight. (3.25 sec)

Edited by LaserAngel, 10 December 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

15 double sinks should allow 4 medium lasers to fire without shutting down.
4*3=12
15*2=30
0r for that matter
15=1.4=21
12-21=-9 heat

A combat turn was one shot, one cooldown with movement! Solaris rules did not go over on TT for a simple reason. THEY RAN TO HOT!!! So if cool down takes 4 seconds and recycle times are 3.25 seconds average, heat is still an issue but a readily controllable issue, where an Awesome 9M is actually not broken and 4 Mediums can cyclic fire with 15 double sinks or 28 single sinks.

[Bloody Moon]

Wow, just wow, so instead of nerfing 1-2 weapons every weapon with the same type gets the nerf, then we'll try to fix the collateral damage.

[FiveDigits]

Nonsense, on 10 December 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Sure, but if it works at 1.4 and they get it so it feels right, why does it matter what the actual amount of heat dissipated is...other than that it's called "double"?

How can it "feel right" when Lights and Mediums operate under 2.0 Double Heatsinks (courtesy of their engines) while Heavies and Assaults run only half DHS and the other half 1.4 Crapsinks?
To add insult to injury all of them use the same Small and Medium Lasers that are out of line balance-wise.

But it's all good. The 3 Second Jenner bogeyman (which is using true DHS right now) got replaced by the 6 Medium Laser Cicada bogeyman.

What really saddens me is how at least some of you defend this travesty because "the devs know better".

[QuantumButler]

FiveDigits, on 10 December 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

How can it "feel right" when Lights and Mediums operate under 2.0 Double Heatsinks (courtesy of their engines) while Heavies and Assaults run only half DHS and the other half 1.4 Crapsinks?
To add insult to injury all of them use the same Small and Medium Lasers that are out of line balance-wise.

But it's all good. The 3 Second Jenner bogeyman (which is using true DHS right now) got replaced by the 6 Medium Laser Cicada bogeyman.

What really saddens me is how at least some of you defend this travesty because "the devs know better".

It's pretty obvious based on all the SNAFUs and bugs we've gotten that the devs barely play their own game, I'm not sure how anyone can trust them to "know better" these days.