263 replies to this topic

[SpiralRazor]

Indk, on 03 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

They tested it and it made the game suck. Has anyone on this forum tested 2.0 DHS? DHS is almost always an upgrade already, if it were 2.0 it would be mandatory.

Oh, rest ASSURED they did NOT test it, as the really dumb comments i shall refrain from linking indicate.

Max Dragon, on 03 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

PLEASE STOP BRINGING THIS UP, this game is not tabletop and, IMHO, should not elude to or try to be tabletop concerning rules, stats, or damage. Table top was a random generated turn based strategic game and this is real time first person "simulation" of what it would be like to be in the cockpit of a mech during that Random generated turn based strategy game. They game will have to be balanced for the "feel" of the game not the words that are written for an entirely different combat system and game that are worlds a part. If they said it was broken. It was broken. Stop posting your non-tabletop soapbox complaints.

You must be new.

[Sephlock]

Prosperity Park, on 03 December 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

I think they put the full 2.0 DHS in the Engines because Assault Mechs always run big engines and always make the 10-HS required drop spec; Mediums and Lights can get away with smaller Engines and simply stack external heatsinks on top of their Engine Fullies in order to make the drop spec... and they are so spacious to begin with.

So the Rule is meant for small-engined, spacious Mechs to not get the full benefit of DHS. I think their intent was to deter, or rather reduce the effectiveness of, people dropping Engine weight to stack more external heatsinks on their small, spaceous Mechs.

Are you playing in the bizzaro world?

Light mechs with small engines and heavies with big ones?

[Voidsinger]

Sadly, trading out what they see as an imbalance in one area, automatically creates an imbalance in another. It's a viscious cycle.

Larger mechs can't take large energy weapons without true DHS.

New problem. Large mechs take massive missile launchers, equip them with Artemis IV and whine about ammo costs. Then PGI overpowers ECM for more complaints.

or

New Problem. Large mechs take as many Gauss Rifles as possible, then complain about the Glass Cannon.

This is the problem. Internal testing isn't bringing to light the problems once deployed. There are enough minmaxers in the player community that flaws come to light almost immediately as a patch hits play, because these people play the numbers games with precision.

[Onyx Rain]

All I know is current DHS implementation doesn't feel like enough to me... Buff DHS please....1.6+ to the heat cap for the ones that aren't 2.0 and/or buff the heat dissipation rate

[SteelPaladin]

I can live w/o 2.0 DHS. I think it's nuts and all my experience w/the game makes me very sketchy about their reasoning, but I can live w/it.

That said, they need to standardize. the damn things. This "all of your SHS are Z, but some of your DHS are X and some are Y" business is counter-intuitive and is going to make it difficult for non-forum-warriors to figure out just what benefit they are getting when they invest in DHS. Level it out at 1.7-1.8 per sink, engine or not (1.8 would make a 15 sink mech break even). Besides making things a lot easier for people to conceptualize, it would give heavier mechs a bit of love while reining in lights.

Edited by SteelPaladin, 03 December 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I never said I agree/disagree with the current implementation.

I will say that the most spaceous Mechs right now do not receive the full benefit of DHS.

As for the idea of "engine 1.4's" and "full external" doubles:
I imagine a 300-engine-Atlas Pilot would not be happy if he equipped "DHS" and has less than 17 heat reduction points in that massive engine, especially when they have 2 kinds of missiles, a ballistic, and multiple energy weapons taking up SO much space, and no leg space for additional external 2.0 DHS.

I mean, if you nerf Jenenrs that way, they will just stack 4 or more full external doubles and be cool or cooler than an Atlas. Now, Mediums.. they can stack even more DHS than Jenners... I don't think it;s a viable solution, as proposed.



I'm still not saying that engine 2.0 and external 1.4 is the best idea.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 December 2012 - 09:31 PM.

[Heeden]

I'm gonna agree with SteelPaladin simply because my 4MLas 2SSRM Jenner never really bothers about heat and that seems wrong to me.

[Nutlink]

LaserAngel, on 03 December 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

Make engine sinks 1.4 (less that 2.0, not that it matters now since engine sinks ARE 2.0). If you are willing to spend tonnage and critical spaces you should be rewarded with 2.0 sinks.

THIS! I came in this thread to say the exact same thing. As it stands, light mechs get a hell of a bump with DHS, while heavier mechs (you know, the ones that could really use DHS) get screwed. Reverse that - engine sinks at 1.4 and externals at something higher, even if it's not 2.0. This helps reduce the effectiveness of the already insanely powerful Jenners while at the same time bumping up the efficiency of heavier mechs. At least give it a shot.

At the very least, give mechs different heat dissipation values. Something like .7 for lighter mechs, and 1.2 for assaults. Using energy weapons on assaults is all but pointless right now.

Edited by BOTA49, 03 December 2012 - 09:31 PM.

[FerretGR]

BOTA49, on 03 December 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

As it stands, light mechs get a hell of a bump with DHS, while heavier mechs (you know, the ones that could really use DHS) get screwed. Reverse that - engine sinks at 1.4 and externals at something higher, even if it's not 2.0. This helps reduce the effectiveness of the already insanely powerful Jenners while at the same time bumping up the efficiency of heavier mechs.

Not sure how you think that's supposed to help heavier mechs. Few and far between are the assaults that'll be able to fit more than 20 DHS. Most will have 19 or less. At least if the 10 in the engine are 2.0 DHS, the 2.0's will be in the majority.

[Thorqemada]

DHS is pretty well atm and they should at most make 0.1 adjustments to it.
Aside from the Streakcat there is the most diversity in Mech armaments and viable builds i have witnessed in all the time playing.
DHS 2.0 would make very probably Energy boating mandatory.

TT is a guideline buit not the final ruleset for MWO and never should be as TT is turn based combat (and horribly unbalanced) while MWO is realtime combat that needs to be treated accordingly - to me MWO the best Mechwarrior title i have ever played.

PGI already made the mistake to allow much to fast Mechbuilds while not being able to keep their speed up with the netcode making the game in frequent occasions a game of luck forcing players into the use of SSRM to overcome the scourge of the "Superfasts".
Hopefully they learned from it and keep control of the DHS case tight.

Edited by Thorqemada, 03 December 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[Nutlink]

Yeah, I had a particular build in mind when thinking of that. Thinking on it a little more makes me realize it's probably not the best idea. It's just frustrating that I have next to no heat issues with my lighter mechs, but with my heavies and assaults I have to resort to ballistics or missiles to keep heat at a manageable level.

[LaserAngel]

Prosperity Park, on 03 December 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

I never said I agree/disagree with the current implementation.

I will say that the most spaceous Mechs right now do not receive the full benefit of DHS.

As for the idea of "engine 1.4's" and "full external" doubles:
I imagine a 300-engine-Atlas Pilot would not be happy if he equipped "DHS" and has less than 17 heat reduction points in that massive engine, especially when they have 2 kinds of missiles, a ballistic, and multiple energy weapons taking up SO much space, and no leg space for additional external 2.0 DHS.

I mean, if you nerf Jenenrs that way, they will just stack 4 or more full external doubles and be cool or cooler than an Atlas. Now, Mediums.. they can stack even more DHS than Jenners... I don't think it;s a viable solution, as proposed.



I'm still not saying that engine 2.0 and external 1.4 is the best idea.

It is a bit messy. I didn't even touch on the Cool Run or Heat Containment skills or them doubled either. I still say for a week run Double Heat Sinks at 2.0 for all of them. You aren't going to see the stock TT Awesome 9M endlessly firing and ruining someone's day.

I'm trying to find a recent post where another forum goer did the numbers with the wonky DHS along with said skills and DHS effectively reach a staggering ~1.9 per sink. 3 Second Jenners and 4 ER PPC spam indeed....

http://mwomercs.com/...uestion-on-dhs/

Edit: I found the thread.

Edited by LaserAngel, 03 December 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[FerretGR]

Thorqemada, on 03 December 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

DHS 2.0 would make very probably Energy boating mandatory.

How so? We could have DHS at 3.0, and the Gausscat would still be the most heat efficient and pinpoint deadly mech in the game. 2.0 would make energy boating viable, and that could only improve things in terms of diversity.

[Orzorn]

If PGI is going to refuse to alter DHS, then its definitely clear that we're going to have to alter the heat values on some weapons, mostly the PPC. Its operating heat is insane with singles, and barely manageable with doubles. Yes, they're going to buff them in other ways, but if the heat is still huge, I doubt any EMP effect they add can make it worth it over other builds.

[MustrumRidcully]

TruePoindexter, on 03 December 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Also there is already a 14 page thread on this topic already:

http://mwomercs.com/...-all-dhs-to-20/

Garth himself explained it here.

But he didn't explain it convincingly to me. Because I know how much heat mechs can produce, and how much heat Double Heat Sinks would dissipate. I can calculate the resulting damage output of a mech and the duration he can sustain this damage output, I can calculate his average DPS and his top DPS.

I can do all this math and find out that currently, many energy weapons are underpowered compared to non-energy weapons.

And I have not seen a shred of evidence that would counter these estimations.


Morever, his argumentation is internally inconsistent. Jenners often have high rated XL Engine, that means they have at least 10 engine Double Heat Sinks. That means they suffer basically no drawbacks from the current heat sink implementation.
At the same time, we alredy know that the Awesome 8Q with Double Heat Sinks is still a very hot mech that cannot sustain his firepower for long, despite now two 10 to 15 tons lighter mechs are able to sustain similar firepower without any heat limitations and with enough ammo to last a complete match or at least to kill 2-4 mechs alone by center torso kills if you're an average shot.

[Kotrin]

PGI doesn't get that these 2.0 DHS threads will keep on rolling again and again until our eyes bleed. Because 2.0 DHS are part of the canon, and no neutered DHS implementation will cut it.
Imagine the turmoil if PGI had decided that XL engines are "too powerful", heh!

The DHS debacle was a slap in the face of the community, since we could not playtest 2.0 DHS not even for a single day.

This basically killed many official 'Mech designs (and even worse once they are available as non-editable trial 'Mechs) simply because the heat balance of the weapon loadout is thrown out of the window.

It did not balance anything, as Jenners are still able to mount as many laser as they have hardpoints for and beam enemies into oblivion, only slowed down by weapon cooldowns.

It prevented many builds based on ER weapons or even PPC weapons. Now nobody uses them PGI is trying to "tweak" them in order to make them more "interesting", not realizing the lack of these weapons in-game is the result of their own work...

Unfortunately, like many cornered publishers, they just circle the wagons and pretend the problem doesn't exist - I can't wait for a new forum rule enforcing any 2.0 DHS discussion as a bannable offense, it waits for us along the road.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it. And we have no proof that 2.0 DHS were broken in the first place, just PGI statements and blind faith. Guess their "data" are backed up by discussions around a beer and little more.

[Elkarlo]

The Problem is: DHS were orginally limited by the USE of more Slots.

Atm a Mech can Carry 19-22 DHS Practically. (1-2 in the Arms, 3 on each Torso, 10 Engine, 1-4 Engine)

This means: 20 Heatpoints from Engine. and 17 Heatpoints from Externals: 37 Heatpoints would be the
Maximum Practical Max with DHS it would be 44 Max.

The Problem is and what PGI is not realising ATM:
The Lighter a Mech the more Slots he has to Spare. This Means a Lightbulbed Hunchback can use his
Tonnage more effectiv as an Awesome.

An Ballistic Build Relies on the Engine DHS with 20 points, and one of the Reasons why a Streakcat is so Awesome atm is the 20 Points Engine Heatsinks... even in Caucastic Valley i can Chainfire 4 Ssrm 4 and the 2 lrm15 Launcher with 11 DHS for a long time before i have to cooldown pause.

The Same goes for Jenner etc.

PGI removed the 2.0 Effectivness of DHS because they had been to much in Initial Testing.. Granted, but then they BUGGED at removing effectiveness of the Engine DHS they stayed 2. PGI didn't noticed it first, then they increased Energy Weapons Heat, making a ERPPC Mech an Easy kill ( I use for this reason standard PPC and can simply outgun a AWS-9M because i do 50% MORE Damage with double PPC than the AWS-9M because i have the Heat on Damage Ratio)

So they nerfed the Energyweapons because they didn't noticed that they bugged in reducing the DHS effectivness.

PGI has in My Opinion now two Option:

• Reducing Energy Weapons HEAT and putting ALL DHS to 1.4 or 1.5 Effectivness
  
• Putting all Heatsinks to 2.0

As long as they don't one of the two Points Big Mechs will be in big disadvantage, because they overnerfed the DHS as they didn't noticed first that the Engine DHS stayed at 2.0.

Edited by Elkarlo, 04 December 2012 - 02:30 AM.

[John Norad]

The funny thing is:

If SHS performed well, a DHS upgrade wouldn't be mandatory!

Yeah, let that sink (pun!) in for a while.

Now if you finally stopped /headdesk'ing, consider this:
Even if DHS were clearly superior, balance could be achieved by making it a tradeoff-choice and factor it into the matchmaking, actually increasing your battle value and by that boosting your enemy's team. So you might actually run more efficient with single heat sinks.

See, you can balance in very different ways. You just have to be transparent with the system. And you mustn't be spreadsheet-centric and narrow-minded. Tbh this isn't even that much out of the box thinking.

Edited by John Norad, 04 December 2012 - 02:49 AM.

[Brilig]

http://mwomercs.com/.../66086-archive/ For relevant info.

Devs said that they tested double heat sinks at 2.0. The problem was they made heat a non issue for certain builds. Which builds I am not sure, but I guess it was pretty bad.

Some of the stuff they talked about later was that the 2.0 heat sinks became a mandatory upgrade for every mech. With all the pay to win fears they had to shy away from something that was better than the alternative.

So 2.0 doubles made some builds to viable, and were better in all situations than single heat sinks. It seems that rather than tuning heat sinks anymore Devs may tweak weapon heat instead. I know they mentioned looking at PPC heat. Personally that doesn't sound like a bad idea.

[Urza Mechwalker]

FerretGR, on 03 December 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

How so? We could have DHS at 3.0, and the Gausscat would still be the most heat efficient and pinpoint deadly mech in the game. 2.0 would make energy boating viable, and that could only improve things in terms of diversity.

How in hell people take conclusions like DHS woudl make energy boating mandatory? Energy wepons are FAR FAR inferior right now. They need more heat sinking so they can become even competitive!


You cannot use a 3 ERPPC mech even on a MODERATE pace with current sinks. While you can easily field 2 gauss taht can deal the same ammount of damage with no heat issues.