263 replies to this topic

[Locan Ravok]

People.... Just wait to complaim about dsh after clantech. Dhs with 2 crits will make all your pains go way.

[wanderer]

Locan Ravok, on 04 December 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

People.... Just wait to complaim about dsh after clantech. Dhs with 2 crits will make all your pains go way.

Except for the inevitable higher heat on energy weapons in Clantech.

There is no large laser, only large pulse or ER large. Of course, you'll be able to stuff more DHS in, but at 1.4, the problem will remain since on average, higher heat is a Clan standard vs. IS models- after all, you also can stuff more WEAPONS in as well.

[Lanessar]

TruePoindexter, on 03 December 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

They do that internally with the staff they have on hand where they can see the results immediately. They don't need to do it publicly where there is a minimum one week turn around and PR issues.

Like Artemis and "super LRMS" were properly tested?

[Khobai]

Quote

People.... Just wait to complaim about dsh after clantech. Dhs with 2 crits will make all your pains go way.

1.4sinks that take up 2 crits wont make any pain go away... 1.4sinks just dont cool fast enough.

[Lanessar]

As far as those complaining about Jenners and heat, honestly, The thing that makes Jenners ultra-powerful right now is the lagshield net code. Once that's fixed, Jenners will be dying really, really quickly. This from a Jenner pilot.

[AlexEss]

Khobai, on 04 December 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

1.4sinks that take up 2 crits wont make any pain go away... 1.4sinks just dont cool fast enough.

Cool fast enough for what...? For you to be able to alpha 4xERPPC on caustic... To keep energy weapons competitive...

The way i see it is PGI spending a lot of time for people to be able to test 2.0 only to come to the conclusion that.. Yes.. it was over the top, Time wasted in my mind.

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 04 December 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Except for the inevitable higher heat on energy weapons in Clantech.

There is no large laser, only large pulse or ER large. Of course, you'll be able to stuff more DHS in, but at 1.4, the problem will remain since on average, higher heat is a Clan standard vs. IS models- after all, you also can stuff more WEAPONS in as well.

Technically there are standard weapons in Clan Tech, They are just one crit and one ton lighter. OR at least there were, but with the reprint, upgrade, and revised editions of the 3050, that text may have been removed.

[FerretGR]

AlexEss, on 04 December 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

The way i see it is PGI spending a lot of time for people to be able to test 2.0 only to come to the conclusion that.. Yes.. it was over the top, Time wasted in my mind.

Still waiting for someone to show me mathematically how 2.0 DHS are "over the top". I've already shown how the 4 ERPPC bugbear doesn't exist ITT, on Caustic or otherwise.

[Joseph Mallan]

AlexEss, on 04 December 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

Cool fast enough for what...? For you to be able to alpha 3xERPPC on caustic... To keep energy weapons competitive...

The way i see it is PGI spending a lot of time for people to be able to test 2.0 only to come to the conclusion that.. Yes.. it was over the top, Time wasted in my mind.

I fixed this for you. An Awesome 9M is supposed to be able to Alpha 5-6 times before it's heat is critical. On caustic it should be more like 3 times... tops.

[AlexEss]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 December 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

I fixed this for you. An Awesome 9M is supposed to be able to Alpha 5-6 times before it's heat is critical. On caustic it should be more like 3 times... tops.

Supposed to according to what..? Yeah i know the 4xERPPC was a overstatment but i still do not get the argument. Who said you are supposed to be able to do 5-6 aplhas..?

FerretGR, on 04 December 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

Still waiting for someone to show me mathematically how 2.0 DHS are "over the top". I've already shown how the 4 ERPPC bugbear doesn't exist ITT, on Caustic or otherwise.

The 4xERPPC was a overstament for effect... But seeing how heat efficeint some builds are right now (my Cicada for an example that in in reality only limited by how much space the heatsinks take up) increase the efficiency to 2.0 and it will perhaps not eliminate my need to watch my heat but it make it almost trivial... and then include in to those numbers the Clan DHS and my heat will be pretty much just there for show. The complaints would be through the roof.And that brings me back to.. do we NEED them?

Why is it in your mind that we need them? enlighten me.

Edited by AlexEss, 04 December 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[FerretGR]

You could do unlimited alphas if those were Gauss rifles.

[Sifright]

AlexEss, on 04 December 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Supposed to according to what..? Yeah i know the 4xERPPC was a overstatment but i still do not get the argument. Who said you are supposed to be able to do 5-6 aplhas..?

a little birdy called game balance and table top.

but dont worry keep piloting those easy bake ovens, I'll keep cleaning your clock in my mechs built for this game environ.

[Purlana]

AlexEss, on 04 December 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Supposed to according to what..? Yeah i know the 4xERPPC was a overstatment but i still do not get the argument. Who said you are supposed to be able to do 5-6 aplhas..?

Battle tech lore?

Edited by Purlana, 04 December 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[Bounty Dogg]

Guys.....Im gonna post a quote that i answered in another thread about 2.0 sinks, that kinda (IMO) highlights the real reason we'll never test 2.0 sinks. My apologies if anyone takes offense to the quote, but This is the real problem, as i see it.

Quote

Mister Blastman, on 03 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Quote

> : (

Garth and team: Learn how to make battlemechs. Then get back to us. Obviously you guys have no idea how to do it. If you did, you'd see DHS aren't always mandatory. Sometimes, singles make more sense to use.

2.0 or bust!

See....this....this right here.....THIS is the real reason that we'll never even get to test 2.0 Heatsinks: This Beta community wouldnt be able to take having to give it up again.

Will all the of screaming and gnashing of teeth over the issue as it stands right now, what do you think this community would do if the Devs DID give it to us to TEST for a few weeks, then supply that the data supports what they first thought and that 2.0 sinks have trivialized the heat system, and so must be removed?

Would this community quietly accept the judgement and give 2.0 sinks back?

......................................No.

If you thought the level of screaming and crying was bad BEFORE, let the above scenario happen. It will feel as if the Apocalypse has descended upon these forums. The flamewars, the Trolling, the Troll baiting......it would tear this community apart......and hat highlights the real problem with this community..........we're (and I include my self as part of this community) just too immature to truly BE Beta testers. Over and over again one can find glowing examples of how rational thought is thrown out the window in favor of overreaction, dramatization, bitter arguements, and belittling behavior. So much so that a lot of positive imput/info/helpful information is buried under miles of negativity. Now if the Negativity was presented in a constructive way, that would be ok: sometimes a game needs to be poked in the right direction through negative yet productive feedback. However, 8 times out of 10 the negativity is of so toxic a nature, that any actual feedback in the post/thread would be (and SHOULD be) overlooked by any sane mind to avoid the filth that comes in a lot of posts nowadays.

Guys, we are our own worst enemies here. We complain that the Devs dont listen? Its because we've made them standoffish by what we say/how we say it. We complain content comes out too fast with bugs? Thats cus WE'RE the Beta Testers! part of the reason we're HERE is to help quickly find and report those bugs to help hte process along, NOT to scream about how said bug has ruined the game/destroyed the game. Content is not coming out quickly enough? It has to be readied. If they thought we could HANDLE 3/4ths complete content with bugs that needed stamping out, they'd pass it to us so we could shorten the process by pointing out the where the bugs are, how they occur, steps to make them REcur, and all possible info on it. Beta shouldnt be charging real money? While I partly agree, They do have to sink in funds to keep this thing running. The fact that they made it a choice for us to support to game, instead of asking for a monthly fee, is better than (IMO) the alternative: you know, this game we're all passionate about (positively or negatively) CLOSING DOWN. Cus yes.....that can still very well happen. And I get the distinct feeling that those arguing negatively still see value in this game, or at least potential, or they wouldnt be arguing.....they'd have left by now.

Forgive me for rambling, but my point is really this.......If we want them to TREAT us as Beta Testers....then we have to start ACTING like Beta testers. The more maturely and accurately we can report bugs in a timely manner with accurate information to recreate, and the more we can fight down our passions that need to hurt something because the game is not we envision it to be, the more the Devs will TRUST us with bigger issues, like the testing of 2.0 heat sinks.

you don't give Fire to a child to play with.......either they or you WILL get burned. Time to start showing PGI/IGP we're not children.....anymore.

Edited by Bounty Dogg, 04 December 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[wanderer]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 December 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Technically there are standard weapons in Clan Tech, They are just one crit and one ton lighter. OR at least there were, but with the reprint, upgrade, and revised editions of the 3050, that text may have been removed.

They were removed entirely from the game and do not exist canonically as a result- none of the TRO 3050 designs used them in any case. ^ ^

[Stormur Herra]

Indk, on 03 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

They tested it and it made the game suck.

Has anyone on this forum tested 2.0 DHS?

DHS is almost always an upgrade already, if it were 2.0 it would be mandatory.

After the last few patches, I'm not sure I believe they test anything related to their game.

[AlexEss]

FerretGR, on 04 December 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

You could do unlimited alphas if those were Gauss rifles.

Yes but Gaussrifels are getting other flaws instead. Such as being so fragile that a violent sneeze will destroy them and they are fairly large and heavy unless a good chunk of the energy weapons.

Purlana, on 04 December 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

Battle tech lore?

Well... Not so much in most cases. Game system wise i am sure you could do it but as it is described in the "fluff-lore" alpha fire at all was not very common due to the sauna (but without all that nice humidity) like effect they had on the cockpit and pilot. It was usually seen as a rather desperate move.

Edited by AlexEss, 04 December 2012 - 08:14 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

AlexEss, on 04 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Well... Not so much in most cases. Game system wise i am sure you could do it but as it is described in the "fluff-lore" alpha fire at all was not very common due to the sauna (but without all that nice humidity) like effect they had on the cockpit and pilot. It was usually seen as a rather desperate move.

Well, the fluff doesn't calculate heat in 10 second turns. If you fire your 4 ER PPCs within 2 seconds of each other, that may not be deemed an alpha strike anymore - but in the table top, it's still 4 ER PPC shots within a single turn.

We unfortunately don'T have a heat scale in MW:O that would support either. You can alpha strike, say 3 PPCs twice in a row, and the first shot wouldn't feel particularly "hot". There is no reason to fire them with a delay like this. The heat capacity is usually sufficient.

Even a heat neutral mech could, giving a low enough heat capacity, still require "heat mangement" in a real time game. Let's pretend you can fire your PPCs only every 10 seconds (for ease of math, not because I want that that to be the actual ROF), had 3 of them, and had a heat neutral build. IF your heat capacity is 30 - yes, you can always fire them together and not overheat. But if it was 15 - your mech is heat neutral. So you should be able to fire them at their full ROF.
If you fire one PPC every 3 second, and repeat that cycle every 10 seconds, you would maintain your full ROF and your full DPS (expect in the first 10 seconds), and would never "Hit" the heat capacity.

That is what we could have had, if the heat system was better designed. It would fit the fluff, and it would work mechanically. It would also be a counter to convergence benefits - if you really want to boat 8 medium lasers and deliver the alpha strike of 2 AC/20s, then you would actually have to make your mech more than heat neutral (assuming the heat capacity is still influenced by your heat sinks) to be able to do it. This means that skilled players that can aim well would be able to run hotter builds than those that cannot, and be able to out-DPS them.

[FerretGR]

AlexEss, on 04 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Yes but Gaussrifels are getting other flaws instead. Such as being so fragile that a violent sneeze will destroy them and they are fairly large and heavy unless a good chunk of the energy weapons.

Yes, but at least until the point that you get shot up, unlimited alphas. But you must see that the "large and heavy" is overbalanced by the "large and heavy" (in this case) PPCs that require a "large and heavy" amount of HS just to approach the level of effectiveness of a Gauss.

I was hesitant to bring the Gauss into this conversation because it's almost apples and oranges, but I was looking at it purely with reference to your objection about "nonstop alphas" and PPCs. If you're objecting to the ability to alpha nonstop then it's worth looking at: higher damage, pinpoint accuracy, never overheats. It's a super-PPC and that's the reason PPCs are so rare in MWO instead of being the scary mech-killers they were in canon.

Edited by FerretGR, 04 December 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 December 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

On the contrary, Double sinks are not even in the game yet. And until they are actually doubled compared to single sinks, we don't know how good they actually are. No offense Garth and the rest, But as we are the testers and the paying customers, shouldn't we have the right to test them at full strength before they are made weaker than intended?

Except that they are 2.0 inside engines. Thus depending your mech build, you could have a average range of DHS rates varying from 2.0-1.6 without including pilot skills and other factors.

Most of my builds are averaging out at 1.8 right now, which is a reasonable compromise. That said, full 2.0 for everything would be only a slight increase from where we are in the current implementation.