2028 replies to this topic

[Codejack]

Also, ECM seems to be exacerbating the netcode issue, especially if there's more than one ECM overlapping. I just had a great 4 kill game; it would have been more, but I got the low signal warning, tried to look around, then my screen jumped and I was 100m off in another direction with a Cicada and a Hunchback shooting the **** out of me.

[Tolkien]

Codejack, on 11 December 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Also, ECM seems to be exacerbating the netcode issue, especially if there's more than one ECM overlapping. I just had a great 4 kill game; it would have been more, but I got the low signal warning, tried to look around, then my screen jumped and I was 100m off in another direction with a Cicada and a Hunchback shooting the **** out of me.

I didn't want to mention it for fear of being seen as a negative nelly (and since it might just have been the post patch rush stressing the servers), but I do seem to have laggier response when an ECM is in a large group (friendly or enemy).

[Nemesiz416]

Jesus, so it's come down to the "ECM is GREAT! If you don't like it, you're a just a stupid streak cat pilot who got what was coming to him!" and the other side, "ECM needs to go, the game is ruined!" There are valid points to both sides, and there has to be a nice medium where ECM can have its cake but not eat it so that it's powerful, but not game breaking. For those who love ECM and are cheering the "nerfing" of streakcats, can I ask, how many of you use Streaks on your ECM mechs yourself? If you do, doesn't that make you a hypocrite? And those who hate ECM, weren't there too many matches where the sky was blotted out with the number of missiles being used? Or where you had to face as many as 3 or 4 streakcats that totally brought cheese to the game? I've said it before, there needs to be balance. ECM cannot remain as powerful as it is without something other than 1.5 tons and 2 slots to penalize the player using it. But can we also stop with insults? I'm tired of going through page after page of flame war, trying to find a post worth reading.

[ExAstris]

I still think the best thing to do is give every mech a fully modifiable information warfare suite on its own tab in the mechbay, then allow electronic warfare modules (ewar mods) to each individually have one of the effects that ECM is currently giving. Then changing the ECM to fit that system (probably by granting the mech a couple extra ewar mod slots).

And if its too much work to do information warfare right, then you could always do it the easy way: Make those bonuses into pilot modules.

Recall the list of things that ECM does for you and then translate those into individual ewar mods or pilot modules.
Artemis - Give us an ewar/pilot module that makes our specific mech immune to the Artemis clustering bonus.
BAP - Give us a pilot module that reduces the range enemies can lock onto us at (or at least counters BAP bonuses)
Tag - Give us a module that makes us immune to the tag clustering bonus and denies enemy missile users a faster lock on due to being Tagged.
NARC - The pattern should be obvious by this point.
LRM/SSRM lock - A module to increase enemy missile lock time.
general targeting info - lots of modules to modify general target info, maybe extra delays to bring up specific information about your current damage, or complete denial of what your loadout is, or a delay between when the first mech locks you and when he can relay that information to his allies. etc. etc. etc.

Way more interesting options for loadouts, way more goodies for every pilot to work towards, way more balance on the field, way more checks and balances in the information warfare realm, just a flat out better system.

Edited by ExAstris, 11 December 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[Tolkien]

Alex Steiner Davion, on 11 December 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Jesus, so it's come down to the "ECM is GREAT! If you don't like it, you're a just a stupid streak cat pilot who got what was coming to him!" and the other side, "ECM needs to go, the game is ruined!" There are valid points to both sides, and there has to be a nice medium where ECM can have its cake but not eat it so that it's powerful, but not game breaking. For those who love ECM and are cheering the "nerfing" of streakcats, can I ask, how many of you use Streaks on your ECM mechs yourself? If you do, doesn't that make you a hypocrite? And those who hate ECM, weren't there too many matches where the sky was blotted out with the number of missiles being used? Or where you had to face as many as 3 or 4 streakcats that totally brought cheese to the game? I've said it before, there needs to be balance. ECM cannot remain as powerful as it is without something other than 1.5 tons and 2 slots to penalize the player using it. But can we also stop with insults? I'm tired of going through page after page of flame war, trying to find a post worth reading.

You disagree with me, therefore you are wrong and probably a deviant of some sort.... wait sorry, you're right... must think constructively.

I would love to see BAP (which is the same size as ECM, and weighs the same) completely protect the mech carrying it from the effects of ECM. Failing that PGI should make every single mech in the game able to carry ECM, just like any other system you can stick on a mech, and just like the AMS.

What would this do? This would let us see to what extent the system is broken by seeing what fraction of the player base immediately equips it.

less than 5% of the mechs in the tabletop game used ECM - if more than 5% of players feel the need to have it, it might be OP. Personally I would gladly pay to have a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment counter

Artemis
BAP
Tag bonuses (and the whole system inside of 180m)
NARC - a system which takes more space, weighs more, requires real coordination and skill and has ammo.
other ECMs
LRM locks
SRM locks
general targeting info
relegate AMS to almost pointlessness
have no exploding ammo
generate no heat
cost less than a module by a factor of 15...

I know I am repeating myself but it bears repeating so people see exactly how the ECM is hands down the best single piece of equipment in the game right now.

[Tennex]

wait wait wait, ECM gives Null Signature, a 7 critical spot, 10 constant heat generating, personal cloaking system to you AND your team for free.

how is that okay.

ECM is only supposed to prevent missile lock not remove targeting information. It confuses radar by creating ghost signatures on the radar. but it doesn't prevent acquiring targets like null signature

Edited by Tennex, 11 December 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[Snuglninja]

Tennex, on 11 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

wait wait wait, ECM gives Null Signature, a 7 critical spot, 10 constant heat generating, personal cloaking system to you AND your team for free.

how is that okay.

ECM is only supposed to prevent missile lock not remove targeting information. It confuses radar by creating ghost signatures on the radar. but it doesn't prevent acquiring targets like null signature

Not guardian ecm it isn't suppose to stop target lock only interfere with narc,bap and artemis

[DeaconW]

abivard, on 11 December 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

The utter lack of reading comprehension as well as abysmal depths of ignorance displayed by the ranters here is almost beyond belief.

I agree. When will you stop?

Quote

Not my function to educate you on how to play.

Nice sidestep...and you were trying to "educate us"...right up until the point where we asked you for proof of how good TAG was...

[Mercules]

Tennex, on 11 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

wait wait wait, ECM gives Null Signature, a 7 critical spot, 10 constant heat generating, personal cloaking system to you AND your team for free.

how is that okay.

ECM is only supposed to prevent missile lock not remove targeting information. It confuses radar by creating ghost signatures on the radar. but it doesn't prevent acquiring targets like null signature

No it doesn't. Null Signature also affects Visually spotting mechs. ECM cuts down active sensors. It SHOULD be only cutting the range in half instead of 3/4rs. The issue also isn't ECM it is LRMs and Streaks are not implemented correctly. Kobold has a beautiful well laid out post on the issue.

LRMs should be:
Direct LoS to target - Can lock without using R but requires some time to do so.
Direct LoS to target with "R" lock - Can lock in the shortest amount of time
No LoS to target but teammate has "R" lock - Can lock on but requires longer to do so

From there TAG, Artemis, and other equipment should modify that result.

Streaks should function much the same as the first two options for LRMs but should "unlock" after a tube has been fired. So if you alpha your SSRMs then you would need to wait for the lock again and not just recharge on the missiles. Streaks should require a very narrow area to lock on and the cursor should have to stay in that area.

Now ECM doesn't all but negate LRMs and SStreaks.


BTW, hitting "R" simulates active sensors "locking" onto a target and making it available for the team. This is why the mech damage and weapon load shows up, you are actively scanning the mech and that is why ECM prevents it since ECM prevents many of the "active sensors" in the TT.

[twibs]

Lower the passive range from 180m -> 50m
Increase the counter range from 90m -> 250m

Move the target relay distruption to counter mode

Decrease the 'spot' range reduction from 25% to 40%, and additional 20% if in counter mode

Increase the tonnage to atleast 3

Now you have a system that let's you shield allies if you actively do it, gives you good chances to sneak behind enemy lines but not be invulnerable to LRM since they could lock on to you between ranges 280 and 50m, relay that information to friendles unless the enemy switched to counter mode.

And it would still be very very good equipment.

The lower lock on to LRM and SSRM sounds fine on paper, but currently you can't target them over 200m and you can't lock on or relay under 180m, so that gives you 20m of a window to lock on to a light that zooms past you at 120-140 kmph.

Edited by twibs, 11 December 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Xenok]

Variations of a couple of ideas I have read. I do not think the effects of ECM should be changed much, if at all. I do think there needs to be a cost. These are ideas, and as such are not a package, pick and choose for balance. The ideas revolve around having a third mode, shutdown where it is neither jamming a targets ECM or generating its ECM bubble.

* ECM (when enabled) blinds the jamming mech from targeting at all ranges.
* ECM (wen enabled) ECM generates 10 HPS, or can reduce the bubble to protect only self for 1 HPS (HPS is heat per second).
* ECM requires a hard-point in order to mount it if it projects an ECM bubble. It can be a ballistic, energy or missile hard-point. It can be equipped without the hard-point but can then only be used to shield the equipped mech from detection
* ECM is restricted to Light and Medium Mechs, and then specific chassis and/or variants.

In combination with this increase the range of TAG, duration of NARC (to 45 seconds or so) and allow BAP to be used to target a mech under the protection of ECM from 400m or closer.

[Tolkien]

Xenok, on 11 December 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Variations of a couple of ideas I have read. I do not think the effects of ECM should be changed much, if at all. I do think there needs to be a cost. These are ideas, and as such are not a package, pick and choose for balance. The ideas revolve around having a third mode, shutdown where it is neither jamming a targets ECM or generating its ECM bubble.

* ECM (when enabled) blinds the jamming mech from targeting at all ranges.
* ECM (wen enabled) ECM generates 10 HPS, or can reduce the bubble to protect only self for 1 HPS (HPS is heat per second).
* ECM requires a hard-point in order to mount it if it projects an ECM bubble. It can be a ballistic, energy or missile hard-point. It can be equipped without the hard-point but can then only be used to shield the equipped mech from detection
* ECM is restricted to Light and Medium Mechs, and then specific chassis and/or variants.

In combination with this increase the range of TAG, duration of NARC (to 45 seconds or so) and allow BAP to be used to target a mech under the protection of ECM from 400m or closer.

I like that you're throwing ideas around, but I would like to propose two simpler ones.

1) Let ECM be put on any mech... then we will see exactly what proportion of players think it is too good to be true.

2) Make BAP (which weighs the same and is the same size) protect your mech completely from ECM... then we will see how many players are willing to pay a tiny tax to get that jank piece of equipment out of their game.

The devs can then begin turning down the features of ECM until it is only carried by a sensible fraction of the player base. A survey of the tech readouts in BMD10 shows less than 5% of mechs used ECM. Maybe we will have a balanced piece of equipment when there is 1 ECM per game on average and neither side feels it is absolute essential to have one.

[HTTP Error 400]

The lack of one module type on your team should not dictate whether you win or lose between 2 equally skilled teams.

[Corvus Antaka]

Ill say again that ECM should never stop missile locks, only slow them down by 50%. imho this is currently the biggest issue with ECM, and with the lack of collisions & netcode issues is currently really making for very poor gameplay out there. Having Tag/Narc restore this function so locks happen at normal speed & missiles track better would be perfectly fine.

The bubble needs to go, along with the disruption, having 1 ecm counter 1 ecm is bad, having 1 ecm counter all ECM might return things to people actually taking a variety of mechs instead of the ECM warrior we are currently seeing.

The TAG/NARC buffs will most certainly do very little to improve the situation, and will do nothing to improve the use of LRMS, nor should any pilot be forced to TAG/NARC or have a scout out there to insure the usefulness of any weapon system they bring to the battlefield.

We really need collisions back. people running through each other is becoming a terribly common thing, and its one great way to fight an atlas/slow mech...just run through him and force him to 180 at a crawl over and over.

before ECM the game was actually in a very good place, LRMS had to be dodged (yes wall bugs but those are being fixed) and overall the gameplay experience was quite fun. At this stage of the game there is very little fun left in the matches, and I hope that PGI addresses our ECM concerns soon.

[Povier]

[BUG] TAG-targetting into ECM didnt work sometimes

After beeing convinced that targetting by TAG into ECM works fine, today i stumble across this bug again.

And i can reproduce this bug:
- If im far away and the enemy (with ecm or in ecm range) is comming into tag range (more than 250 m) i can tag him but cannot target him.
- If im near enough to target him commonly (200m) and then running away, the next time i can tag this enemy from outside into his ecm and target him. Really dont know if i can loose target or intervisibility. Im not certain whether it happens that i loose target or regain it.

Maybe i get not all conditions for reproduction because sometimes its working but frequently not.

Edited by Povier, 11 December 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Coret Trobane]

ECM and Matchmaking

I've been keeping track of some numbers whilst playing in matches (Pugging) this afternoon - 52 matches in total - and have the following information to report concerning the ECM. Some might find it interesting, others may not

1) I'm cursed. In only 50% of matches did my team have ECM
2) In matches where both teams had ECM, I experienced a 41% win/loss ratio (fairly normal for me - I'm normally around 50/50 W/L).
3) In matches where one side had ECM and the other did not, 68% of the time the team with ECM won the match.
4) 53% of the time, matches were started with an ECM imbalance (ie one side had it, the other didn't).
5) While I didn't keep track of the actual value, it seems LRMs were in use (1-2 mechs) in approximately 25-50% of matches. Quite often this was from LRM equipped trial mechs, though custom builds were also present. Only once or twice did I find people boating LRMs. Similarly, less people are now carrying AMS ... being in an ECM bubble is just better.

From what I can tell, the current incarnation of ECM has driven most players towards direct damage builds, and is encouraging either close range battling or long range sniping with gauss/energy builds. Even the 6xSRM6 CAT-A1 build was quite a rare sight.

If ECM is to continue in anything resembling its current form, the matchmaker needs to balance it across both teams appropriately. However, if the ECM is modified to be less of a game changing module, the matchmaking will likely be fine as it is, and I'd expect LRMs to become more popular again (though they will still likely stabilise at a lower level of usage than pre-ECM).

[Xendojo]

We need NARC to be adjusted for real-time play.

The timing mechanic on NARC should just be dropped altogether. Let the beacon stay active till whatever it is attached to gets blown off. And let the NARC'd mech be targeted normally under ECM. I think i have suggested this already in this thread.

Having another ECM be the only EFFECTIVE counter to ECM is not working. We need more options for this. TAG and BAP currently are NOT effective ECM counters. NARC in its current state is useless in PUGs, and difficult to make effective in a team setting. Getting rid of the timer on the beacon would IMO be a proper correction. TAG is having a range increase(rightly so, the operational window for TAG to be of use is way too small), so why not drop the timer on the NARC? Since the NARC was introduced i have seen it used once... and used it myself only once...on patch day when it was released. By the next day everyone had figured out it was useless. There are just too many better options for the tonnage.

Even now a week after the game-changer that was ECM release, I have still yet to see anyone use NARC to try to counter ECM. This should be a clear indicator that it needs adjustment.

Also make thermal vision a module already, ECM increased its value significantly.

Don't get me wrong i like ECM, and having to juggle ECM modes depending on the battle situation. But the other counters(NARC specifically) need to be adjusted away from TT rules for gameplay in a real-time game, just like everything(?) else.

[Kemosobe]

Yup, ECM is so balanced as is. Just went into a game with my 2xLRM15 Catapult (with 2 Medium Pulse and 2 Small Pulse) and guess what? I was completely useless. I managed to injure/kill a total of one person who simply strayed to far away from the ECM equipped group. Then, after I just said F' it and went charging in, I did am amazing job at dying as the rest of our team was already dead. If they are going to have ECMs keep the capabilities that it has, they need to at least remove its ability to also block friendly mechs. Although I still feel like it would be broken and need some balancing, at least then the only people with stealth capabilities are the people with the ECM equipped. And for those of you saying they should give every mech the ability to equip it to see what happens, I would equip it on all of my mechs. I am sure everyone else would do exactly the same thing until no one is using LRMs anymore.

The best way to counter Streak Cats, or any really weird and broken build, is to do things like not allowing Catapults to equip SRMs/SSRMs. And for those of you saying, "That is dumb.", I slightly agree, except for that I do not understand why a mech such as the Catapult would even equip SRMs to begin with. It sounds awkward, but if they started putting limitations on hardpoints so people can not equip say a Gauss Rifle where a machine gun is, or a PPC where a Small Laser is, then that would at least put a limit on people creating random builds which turn into god mode builds.

Edited by Kemosobe, 11 December 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[MaxllmuS]

NARC need to work under ECM. TAG need to work under ECM.
This "weapon" have so smal use maby this push people buy and equip it.

P.s. Also i love if i have a button to make always on\of for TAG. Its no point aways hold one button pressed all time and targeting and fireng with other weapons same time.

[Codejack]

Tolkien, on 11 December 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

1) Let ECM be put on any mech... then we will see exactly what proportion of players think it is too good to be true.

Are you #$%!ing kidding me?; 1.5 tons and 2 crits? Everyone would have it on everything.

Say, that sure would be a useful thing on any mech, at such a light weight and so small.

Edited by Codejack, 11 December 2012 - 06:00 PM.