2028 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

Marcus Wulf, on 17 December 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

ECM works just fine:

Does anybody here remember "Desert Storm" in the 1990's?

USN/USAF has "ECM"

IRAQIS has no "ECM"

IRAQIS to USN/USAF "ECM" is OP we cannot Lockon to your jets bombing us, this is so unfair!!!! please turn off or adjust it a little.

I think this says it all.

Happy Holidays!!!!

i think this does say it all, ecm gives you many more options and firepower. without it the otherteam will rain in on you whilst 30%-50% or more of you're firepower/prowess is nullified. puggers now live in iraq desperate to steal usn stuff as much as possible. not much game there.

[Wintersdark]

GalaxyBluestar, on 17 December 2012 - 01:15 AM, said:

i think this does say it all, ecm gives you many more options and firepower. without it the otherteam will rain in on you whilst 30%-50% or more of you're firepower/prowess is nullified. puggers now live in iraq desperate to steal usn stuff as much as possible. not much game there.

30-50% of your firepower is nullified?

1) take fewer LRM's. Risking 50% of your offensive power on a single weapon type that can be so easily blocked is foolish.

2) I can understand how some match ups in 8v8 can be silly (8 ecm atlases, as has been pointed out) but all this woe-is-me pug stuff? I call BS. Pugs are inherently disorganized. While I regularly see on average of 2 ecm mechs per fight, with the exception of the atlas's they almost never stick with the main forces. LRM's streaking across the sky are normal in pug matches.

Every time I bring them on a mech, I never have trouble finding targets for them. Never.

[HTTP Error 400]

1. ECM has made the game boring for PUGs. It's now a game of chance at this level, with little, if any at all, novice level tactics. You either stuff the opponent or they stuff you. I've had very few 'good fights' in PUGs since ECM arrived.

2. No single module should ever be an item that will make your team lose if they don't have one when they fight an even-skilled team.

3. A counter to a module shouldn't be the same module.

4. There should be penalties proportional to the benefit when fitting modules.

Note that 3 of these comments aren't about specifically ECM, they are about game design and balance; however, if it looks and smells like an elephant, it probably is....

Edited by HTTP Error 400, 17 December 2012 - 06:49 AM.

[Big Bad Wulf]

Wintersdark, on 17 December 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

30-50% of your firepower is nullified?

1) take fewer LRM's. Risking 50% of your offensive power on a single weapon type that can be so easily blocked is foolish.

2) I can understand how some match ups in 8v8 can be silly (8 ecm atlases, as has been pointed out) but all this woe-is-me pug stuff? I call BS. Pugs are inherently disorganized. While I regularly see on average of 2 ecm mechs per fight, with the exception of the atlas's they almost never stick with the main forces. LRM's streaking across the sky are normal in pug matches.

Every time I bring them on a mech, I never have trouble finding targets for them. Never.

I think he was referring to the people complaining about ECM being OP because it disrupts their ability sit back and shoot now they have to be at least 450m or work with others in a drop (this I have seen but very rarely though) Or their streak boats nullified and have to carry srms and learn to shoot them.

You are right I have experienced the same thing average game has 2 ecm's one on each side and they usually go their own way. The most I has seen is 4 DDC's and we trounced them (2xlrm/SRM cat combo and 2xlight 1 with ecm the other tag). This makes me think that most of the people complaining are basing it on theoretical than actual game play, as you said you have no trouble finding targets.

Edited by Marcus Wulf, 17 December 2012 - 07:02 AM.

[Big Bad Wulf]

ShadowSpirit, on 17 December 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

ECM in its current incarnation is bad for the simple fact that the game developers have put such a thick blur/filter on objects at range it's near impossible to see a "ECM stealthed" mech other than when it's in your face.

What's up with radar invisibility anyway? Who thought this was a good idea?

They need to make ECM more like the board game. It does too much, too well.

ECM Jams (what kind of jam I do not know, I am guessing strawberry) radar which makes it seem invisible to it like magic. That is why your screen flickers when they are nearby.

As is ECM is good, if you got your wish the lrm boats would lose lock as soon as an ecm boat crosses its path between it and the target so the fact that ecm has to be 180m from the protected target is a good thing.

[Wintersdark]

Marcus Wulf, on 17 December 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

I think he was referring to the people complaining about ECM being OP because it disrupts their ability sit back and shoot now they have to be at least 450m or work with others in a drop (this I have seen but very rarely though) Or their streak boats nullified and have to carry srms and learn to shoot them.

You are right I have experienced the same thing average game has 2 ecm's one on each side and they usually go their own way. The most I has seen is 4 DDC's and we trounced them (2xlrm/SRM cat combo and 2xlight 1 with ecm the other tag). This makes me think that most of the people complaining are basing it on theoretical than actual game play, as you said you have no trouble finding targets.

I rather strongly believe that a lot of the angst with ECM stems from it being a very drastic gameplay change. Streak and LRM boats were extremely powerful, and now they are dangerous to rely on. As I've said before, it's a pendulum effect. There were a LOT of missile boats when ECM first came into play - a whole lot. And it's no surprise: Each LRM10/15/20 does more damage in a volley than a gauss rifle, and doesn't require line of sight. Enter ECM! Everyone and their dog tries it out, because it offers protection from the ridiculous numbers of missile boats around. Suddenly, all those people piloting missile boats are severely nerfed. People ditch LRM's and large numbers of streaks, moving to non-guided builds. ECM is suddenly vastly less valuable(and also not The New Toy anymore), so fewer people bring it. Less ECM, now it's worth taking a LRM rack or two for support.

Dev's original goal: Nerf the hell out of Streak Cats, make missile boats in general less a no brainer. Add ECM. End result: Streak Cats are terrible (BUT! Balanced close-quarters Cat builds are still entirely viable), LRM boats are useful in moderation, but cannot be relied on in large numbers. Mission accomplished, I think.

Not to say ECM is perfect. I still maintain it is far too small and light, making it a no-brainer for light Mechs. Why *wouldn't* you take it, given how lethal StreamSRM's are to lights? If it were heavier, you'd have to sacrifice substantial firepower, making it a harder choice.

[DeaconW]

Abivard, on 17 December 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

why does there have to be asignificant drawback to ECM?


isn't the fact that only 4 chassis can equip it a drawback? 3 of which are lights.

No, anyone can equip those 4 mechs and there is no cost to running all ECM all the time so the drawback to THE GAME is that the other chassis's get sidelined. In fact, if you are not taking an ECM mech to a fight, you are hurting your team.

Edited by DeaconW, 17 December 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Wintersdark, on 17 December 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

I rather strongly believe that a lot of the angst with ECM stems from it being a very drastic gameplay change. Streak and LRM boats were extremely powerful, and now they are dangerous to rely on.

This is where you are wrong. Yeah it cut back on Streak and LRM boats, however it does so much more with such a small cost and tonnage. See below:

Ketzktl, on 16 December 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

ECM is too binary. The team that has the most enjoys too many benefits:
Unrestricted use of streaks and lrms
Unrestricted coordination via being able to call out target letters
Superior situational awareness via being able to see the positions of everyone
Superior targetting as they are able to see mech damage

In contrast, the team with the least loses all of these benefits. They simply lose the ability to target weak spots on opponents, lose the ability to keep track of where everyone is and lose the ability to coordinate fire by simply calling out a letter. They also lose the ability to use streaks and lrms unless TAG is used which is a difficult proposition as the onus is on the TAG unit to keep the target painted and keep out of ECM range and stay alive.

A skilled team can over come these obsticals, but they are very substantial obsticals for a passive piece of equipment that requires no effort to use. This is self evident as skilled teams have chosen to adopt wholescale use of ECM instead of suffering the substantial penalties for not having it. It is a required item, not optional.

ECM should degrade performance, be a hindrance or annoyance, but it shouldn't simply shut down the other team's ability to use systems in the game while simultaneously allowing the ally's team to enjoy all the benefits of using these same systems. It should be nice to have, but not so incredibly detrimental to lack.

Not only does it block LRM and Streaks, it also:

• blocks radar (until within 200m, but outside of 180m bubble)
  
• blocks target acquisition (until within 200m, but outside of 180m bubble)
  
• blocks target intel (until within 200m, but outside of 180m bubble)
  
• blocks your mini map (once in 180m bubble)
  
• blocks your ability to distinguish between friend and foe (once in 180m bubble)

The fact is it hurts the coordination of a non-ECM team is my biggest issue with it. All radar is useless untill within a small 20m window of an ECM carrier. That window becomes even smaller when you add in multiple ECMs. You're at a disadvantage when joining a pug game to see that no one on your team has ECM, while the enemy has several.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 17 December 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[DeaconW]

Got my Atlas D-DC running...time for some big mech ECM "goodness"...

[Tolkien]

Marcus Wulf, on 17 December 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

ECM Jams (what kind of jam I do not know, I am guessing strawberry) radar which makes it seem invisible to it like magic. That is why your screen flickers when they are nearby.

As is ECM is good, if you got your wish the lrm boats would lose lock as soon as an ecm boat crosses its path between it and the target so the fact that ecm has to be 180m from the protected target is a good thing.

I have to disagree - on tabletop LRMs need no locks, this is an adaptation to the shooter that has caused it.

Some specialized LRMs need a TAG (Marik Semi Guided)

Others home in on mechs and are disrupted by ECM (Radiation seeking)

Others home in on ECM itself (I think, can't remember the name of them).

Depending on what technology date you go for as your starting point there are missiles in every flavour of the fire support rainbow.

Anyway, regardless of missiles and locks and whatnot, the part that still sticks out like a sore thumb with ECM is what it gives for what it takes to mount it.

A simple thought experiment is to think about other things that you can put on your mech for 1.5 tons, and you end up with things like some armor, a heatsink and a small laser, or an AMS with a ton of explody ammo.

If asked if I would rather have an AMS or an ECM, good grief I choose the ECM!
If asked if I would rather have the HS+SL or an ECM, good gravy I choose the ECM!
If asked it I would rather have some extra armor or ECM, good god I choose the ECM!

If ECM were balanced for weight and crits it would be about 50/50 and situationally dependent on whether the preferred choice is one system or another.

I know that some people will say that they still don't think ECM is doing too much for too little, but there's no explaining personal taste - some people like listening to the elderly... *shudder*....

[ICEFANG13]

ECM has currently made the light game very stupid. Raven-3L are the top and most powerful by far, and Commando-2Ds are usable along with Cicada-3M. I have literally seen around 10% of light mechs (and Cicada) that are not 2D, 3L, 3M. Since Streaks are so important on light on light, this is not a good thing. I know my light battles, and I know if the lights are abundant, and one side has more ECM than the other (and the same skills/team tactics), they will win. ECM needs a nerf, or the chassis that can carry them need a little nerf. EVEN if the Raven-2X and 4X could use ECM, it would barely be used with the 3L around. The balance of light mechs may be canon, but right now its terrible.

[DocBach]

Marcus Wulf, on 17 December 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

ECM works just fine:

Does anybody here remember "Desert Storm" in the 1990's?

USN/USAF has "ECM"

IRAQIS has no "ECM"

IRAQIS to USN/USAF "ECM" is OP we cannot Lockon to your jets bombing us, this is so unfair!!!! please turn off or adjust it a little.

I think this says it all.

Happy Holidays!!!!

I remember ECM in the form of the DUKE system saving my life in Mosul. It jammed the signal for an IED meant for my truck that unfortunately went off on a civilian truck behind me. I also kind of blame it for the strange tumor that grew out of my neck a year after I got back from Iraq.

Either way, MWO isn't Iraq, and the fact that ECM has become such a mission essential piece of equipment that all you see is groups of lag-shielded Ravens and D-DCs (sometimes supported with A1 SRM6 or dual AC20 K2 cats, just as cheese as the streak or gauss cats), means something might be balance breaking with it.

[steelblueskies]

Wintersdark, on 17 December 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

30-50% of your firepower is nullified?

1) take fewer LRM's. Risking 50% of your offensive power on a single weapon type that can be so easily blocked is foolish.

2) I can understand how some match ups in 8v8 can be silly (8 ecm atlases, as has been pointed out) but all this woe-is-me pug stuff? I call BS. Pugs are inherently disorganized. While I regularly see on average of 2 ecm mechs per fight, with the exception of the atlas's they almost never stick with the main forces. LRM's streaking across the sky are normal in pug matches.

Every time I bring them on a mech, I never have trouble finding targets for them. Never.

as presented earlier, looking at the stock mechs, which are also the trial mechs, approximately half of the released variants in the game come with lrm racks. so yes, that's roughly half, weighted to a more punishing place for newbies WHO CANNOT CHANGE THEIR LOADOUT AT WILL. this does not account for how many designs have those racks accounting for 1/4 to 1/1 of their loadout, merely the presence of the systems. only one stock mech has streaks. only one stock mech has ecm. only one stock mech has tag. two stock mechs have flamers. think about that stuff for a bit.

what were the reasons to take bap when you are almost guaranteed at least one enemy ecm to neutralize it?
have you actually looked at who has dropped ams and it's ton of ammo for the lighter, cheaper, safer alternative where possible? hells if they gave the atlas k ecm.. ~10 per cluster of lrms shot down when they land at it, and ecm to help nullify them coming in? that'd be the posterchild for not liking long range missiles, but cash on the table, it'd still get gnawed on by the swarms and the streaks (because ams remains completely trash for dealing with the shorter ranged missiles and has that ~200 meter range, and has a min range.).

i bet you money if they had an ams system that dealt explicitly with streaks but exclusive of ecm we'd see some more choices happening.

Edited by steelblueskies, 17 December 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[kalligrapher]

I agree with IceFang ... the light game is now off kilter. Streak 2's are THE weapon for light vs. light fights ... with ECM shutting it down so completely it means that light fights go to the side with ECM NOT the side with the better pilots. YES - ECM is a good addition to the game overall and has added a tactical depth but the collateral damage to the light game needs looking at as playing any light bar the ECM ones is a demotivating chore.

[DeaconW]

ICEFANG13, on 17 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

ECM has currently made the light game very stupid. Raven-3L are the top and most powerful by far, and Commando-2Ds are usable along with Cicada-3M. I have literally seen around 10% of light mechs (and Cicada) that are not 2D, 3L, 3M. Since Streaks are so important on light on light, this is not a good thing. I know my light battles, and I know if the lights are abundant, and one side has more ECM than the other (and the same skills/team tactics), they will win. ECM needs a nerf, or the chassis that can carry them need a little nerf. EVEN if the Raven-2X and 4X could use ECM, it would barely be used with the 3L around. The balance of light mechs may be canon, but right now its terrible.

I just had a match in my 2D where I had 5 kills. We had ECM superiority. It was a TS dropship PUG, not with my unit. In what game universe is that not ridiculous? I am not that skilled of a light pilot. I know it. What is making me "good" is ECM and lack of collisions. I am actually starting to feel pity for people in matches without ECM, but, I will continue my bad habits until more people start getting pissed about ECM in it's current state. I am on a mission to save Christmas for MW:O!

BTW, the D-DC is rocking it as well...it's just that the Commando is a more efficient C-bill farmer...

Edited by DeaconW, 17 December 2012 - 09:10 AM.

[Kill Dozer]

Quote

Marcus Wulf, on 17 December 2012 - 03:16 AM, said: ECM works just fine:

Does anybody here remember "Desert Storm" in the 1990's?

USN/USAF has "ECM"

IRAQIS has no "ECM"

IRAQIS to USN/USAF "ECM" is OP we cannot Lockon to your jets bombing us, this is so unfair!!!! please turn off or adjust it a little.

I think this says it all.

Happy Holidays!!!!

DocBach, on 17 December 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

I remember ECM in the form of the DUKE system saving my life in Mosul. It jammed the signal for an IED meant for my truck that unfortunately went off on a civilian truck behind me. I also kind of blame it for the strange tumor that grew out of my neck a year after I got back from Iraq.

Either way, MWO isn't Iraq, and the fact that ECM has become such a mission essential piece of equipment that all you see is groups of lag-shielded Ravens and D-DCs (sometimes supported with A1 SRM6 or dual AC20 K2 cats, just as cheese as the streak or gauss cats), means something might be balance breaking with it.

Seconded.

I'm certain the Iraqi's didn't enjoy Desert Storm all that much, trying to use the bloodbath of the Gulf War (and following wars) to justify ECM in MW:O is absurd, reality doesn't make a good game.

[Tolkien]

Hi all,

Just wanted to stop by and thank (almost) everyone for supporting this question to the devs about ECM.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1598770

It has received 97 likes, and is by a factor of 7 the most popular question being asked of the devs, and it is clear that I don't think it is balanced at all.

It's also clear that the vast majority of those responses have come after Pauls PCgamer interview where he declared it basically working as intended http://www.pcgamer.c...t-mode-release/

I call shenanigans on that, and believe that the community has demanded an explanation for how far off the mark this system is - maybe the devs have something big they haven't shared with us that will bring ECM back into balance - I hope and pray they do, because it's pretty far out of whack right now going by the numbers.

Edited by Tolkien, 17 December 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[CrazyCatDaddy]

ECM might not be overpowered with mediums, heavys and assaults but then all the other light Mechs without ECM still need a huge buff. ECM hurts them the most, because its counter (TAG) is simply not viable against other lights.

Right now, every light mech that doesnt have ECM, is a liability for the whole team. Sorry but this is not good game design.

Edited by ngl, 17 December 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Fabian Wrede]

If your team in a pug don't have a single ECM and enemy has 2 or more you will loose 99/100 matches Only way a pug can beat that would be if by chance they all on voice com.

The effects of ECM needs to be looked over as it's now it has a to large impact on any game for its weight and size even if only 4 chassis can have it.

It should not negate target lock but increase locktime by x4. Increase the range radar range to 300-400m and have BAP help increase further. Instead of blocking minimap communication about targets have a chance to block or give wrong map possitions

[ICEFANG13]

I honestly don't mind ECM being nearly as powerful as it is (with the introduction of counter mode being able to counter more than 1, somewhere between 2-8 depending on whats most balanced). That being said, I would limit each Raven to a 250 engine and can carry ECM. This is a half ton lighter and one more heatsink for the 2X-4X and they can move around 120 KPH with ECM. The 3L would be nerfed to 120. That would give it armor and ECM advantage over lights, but not speed. All Commandos should be able to carry it. They already lack the armor that is so helpful on Jenners/Cicadas/Ravens, and even with ECM, and the 3Streak-2D, I can kill it with just 3 Medium Laser faster than he can kill me, but the 2D is the best Commando, people should be able to ECM and choose the Commando they like best (probably a majority would be 2D's, but still), and lastly, the Jenner should never get ECM. This makes a complex dynamic between.
Speed (Commando, Jenner)
ECM (Commando, Raven)
Armor (Raven, Jenner)
that doesn't remove any parts of the equation and makes them all somewhat equal. The Cicada 4ballistic (that is so bad I can't even remember its number/letter) should get it too, but probably not the 2A/2B.

I also am for removing it from the D-DC, and putting it on the least powerful Awesome, or the Atlas-K. This makes some chassis better for ECM, but weaker in other ways. The current mechs that can use it are best (3L/2D) in their unit, and best for lights, great (D-DC, my opinion, best Atlas, although comparable without ECM, now its the best by far), and very good (3M). No one complains about the 3M with ECM, because that mech got a needed boost that makes its power level (somewhere around 9001), comparable, but not over the top.

Right now, its really messed up. If you want to play a medium or light, you need to consider if the advantages of the mech are worth taking over the Raven-3L and its ECM. Unless you want Lasers, Missiles, and Ballistics, the 3M, or the 3L are probably the best choice.

See? Right now, you should probably run a 3L, if you want to play less than a heavy because of how powerful ECM is. Also the D-DC is better than all other Assaults because of ECM, unless the build is specialized and not missile boat (har har). So right now, the heavy chassis are most balanced, even though they are less common, I see Dragons, Cats, and Phracts. When it comes to Lights its 2D-3L-3M, no mediums that want to live, and the Atlas D-DC for Assaults. ECM working as intended? I doubt that.