2028 replies to this topic

[Mr Steik]

Wrede, on 04 December 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

ECM is OP as it makes streak usless

Streakcat user?

[God of War]

XvDraxvX, on 06 December 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

1. Lower the Range of the ECM Effect buy 10%
2. Remove ECM From the Atlas-D-DC

ECM is then Balanced.

As if that would be sufficent... ROFL!

[Sajuk Kar]

Buckminster, on 06 December 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

My only real complaint is that an Atlas can get it. In some of the older MechCommander games ECM was limited to the Raven only, so if you did run ECM you were limited to a 35 tons mech.

I was in a couple PUG matches where we had two Atlas-D-DCs on our team, and it was stupid how they just marched all over things.

I know, so what is/was the point of the Raven exactly if only one of its varients can get the ECM, along with a bunch of other random mech varients?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Raven

"The Raven is a light electronic warfare BattleMech which, when it first debuted following the end of the Third Succession War, represented humanity's refusal to slide back technologically by being among the first truly original 'Mech designs produced in centuries.^[3] This technological marvel was an attempt by the Capellan Confederation to recreate the sophisticated technology once common during the Star League era. While the resulting electronic warfare device was a technical success, it proved too large and bulky to be installed on any existing 'Mechs. Desperate for any force multiplier, the Capellans decided build an entirely new 'Mech around the electronics, creating the first prototype Ravens.^[4]"

Ummm, what?
Introduced 3048^[1]

Edited by Sajuk Kar, 06 December 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[Gunfighterfd]

OK I am driving a LRM cat. THE LRM CAT IS NOW WORTHLESS! THE ECM IS WAY OVERPOWERED. I Should STILL BE ALBE TO LOCK A MECH FOR LRM FIRE. IT SHOULD JUST TAKE LONGER AND REDUCE THE RANGE AT WHICH I CAN LOCK. ECM SHOULD NOT EFFECT TAG. MY LRM CAT IS TOTALY WORHTLESS NOW THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TAKING AN ENTIRE CLASS OF MECH OUT OF THE GAME.

[XvDraxvX]

XvDraxvX, on 06 December 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Its likely been said already, but i dont want to read through 600+ posts.

1. Lower the Range of the ECM Effect buy 10%
2. Remove ECM From the Atlas-D-DC

ECM is then Balanced.

God of War, on 06 December 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

As if that would be sufficent... ROFL!

....it would be, i played a lot of games last night and the only times my 8 man and then later my 4 man had troubles was when the enemy team had 3-4 Atlas-D-DC's.

Lightmechs with ECM is ok, one good blast or 2 and you can take them out thus crippling the ECM effect. My Clan is full of great pilots and great shots so hitting lights isnt a problem.

The issue with the Atlas is that it takes a lot more shots to bring it down, its a long time to go without Targeting info for my team.

My proposed change would make ECM user's think twice before running into the enemy units. If its on a light then the mindset would be "Do i go in and maybe die, or do i sneak around and try and be stealthy" with a Atlas with all its armor there is little to no need for stealth. just run in with 2 other Atlas's and wreck.....

Past that i think ECM is fine small range nerf to give you more time to react to the incoming ecm mech, and take it off Assault's i know its "Cannon" but for the sake of balance ECM should only be available on most lights and some mediums.

I say we try it for a week the way i propose it and then see how the games go. I bet you would still see people equipping it but you, wouldnt see anymore "Steiner Scout Lances" maybe 1 or 2 lights with ECM. Thats totally fine, they pay for that equipment with low armor, fair trade in my book.

Edited by XvDraxvX, 06 December 2012 - 08:58 AM.

[JohnMCclane79]

ECM should only work for that mech for disrupt.
Having one mech with ECM that proctect EVERYONE
Is a little over power to my taste. The counter should work
On contering any mech that has disrupt on within 200 meter.
This way those that don't have ECM people would still be able to
Fire at them. It give way to much advantage now. The gameplay
Now is you have 4 5 mech with ECM. The worst part is
They could be in behind the building that your using for cover
And you won't even know they're their. Anything within 200 meter
Should still show on the HUD. Maybe it just me but ECM need to be brought down
A few notch I thing.

Good job on the game and no matters what you changed ill still
Play. Keep the good job

[ICEFANG13]

Ginga121, on 06 December 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

I pilot an ECM mech. My heat efficiency isn't great as it is. I already have to watch my heat simply from shooting. Adding the ECM generating heat would mean I would never be able to fire a shot off if I wanted to use the ECM.

My ECM Light relies on other light's to help me take down enemy ECM Lights as my firepower isn't as stong as theirs.

If my ECM generates heat simply by being switched on then you are punishing me for using teamwork and tactics... Is that really what we want Mechwarrior Online to do?

Seriously... If it generated heat by being on I would just scrap it altogether in favour of more ammo or armour. It's not worth having.

Also the Counter/Disrupt mode works PERFECTLY. You just have to use a small amount of common sense and intelligence when you are playing with it. I don't know about you but I don't want everyone to be able to pick up and ECM and easily run around and be really effective with it. I'd rather people had to think when they are using it and adjust to the situations around them (tactics)

How do you have heat problems, and low firepower? That makes no sense at all. What weapons are on the ECM mech and what is your heat efficiency?

EDIT: Watching your heat when you shoot is a good and needed thing, I hope you don't have a heat efficiency of 1.6-^ and find that a problem.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 06 December 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[AlanEsh]

Here's the answer to our ECM woes...

Eliminate multiple ECMs stacking. PERIOD.

[Grym]

I could understand NARC.

But im totally against tag. It will produce a rebirth of the streak cat on the pult-c4. No thanks.

[Not a Number]

As already pointed out by several people, ECM would still be quite effective against LRMs & SSRMs if all it did was stay close to the canon and simply follow the idea of blocking all enemy communication within its 180M bubble to the letter. Missiles could still get a lock from outside the bubble but would lose tracking as soon as they'd pass inside of it. Unless the targeted mech were standing still or moving very slowly (hello Atlas D-DC) it would be quite hard to hit.

This loss of tracking is not currently in game.

The most obvious counters to it would be TAG, because of its target painting nature, or Counter ECM, which would disable the bubble altogether. TAG fired from within the ECM bubble might still work for the mech using it, but it would not be able to relay any data to its allies because of the ECM blocking its communications.

These counters are currently already in game and pretty much working as described.

Fast scouts equipping ECM would still be able to sneak up on missile boats and keep them from firing on targets outside of the bubble. Which is an interesting tactic, requiring some effort on the part of the ECM user to be really effective. That's opposed to just passively reducing the maximum detection range to 200M so they don't even have to bother with the sneaking bit.

That free of charge, no drawback, null-signature part of ECM just has to go. It:
- Requires no skill and contains no element of risk vs. reward
- Hurts diversity of tactics, mech variants, weapon systems etc.
- Makes ECM do too much for its weight (increasing it would hurt the Raven 3L which comes with it as standard and lighter mechs in general)
- Drains much of the fun out of the game (unless you're using ECM)
- Makes ECM too complicated, especially for new players
- Does not follow BattleTech canon
- Does not even make much sense when considering real-world ECM (on the contrary)

Unless people prefer ECM to be the opposite of BAP like in previous MechWarrior games, where it does reduce detection range (albeit by a lot less), the mechanic just has to be removed. Following the system from previous MW games would make it pretty dull however. Kinda like BAP is now.

Many of the suggested bandaids, like NARC being able to broadcast through the ECM bubble*, would only create new problems and/or make MWO stray further from the canon, which should not be preferable unless following it absolutely cannot be justified.

* NARC definitely needs a big buff. This isn't it though.

[Croaker13]

I'm not against the idea if ECM, but let me put it like this:
Today, for the first time, I took the LRM rack off my DRG-1C (w. Gauss rifle). It's not that it was ever a necessity to running a Dragon, but I always liked having the option of lobbing a few volleys at the enemy available.
Now, it's simply not worth the tonnage anymore, and I think that's a shame - not least because it makes the "canon" loadouts even less useable than they were before.

I guess that puts me in the "nerf ECM" camp.

Edited by Croaker13, 06 December 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[Vrekgar]

Sen, on 06 December 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

There is no reason for this. LRM are implemented perfectly. Any additional problems you may be encountering are PEBKAC.

Fixed that for irony.

[LuckJaw]

Why dont have ECM block or unblock only the target mech you have.... So you would be shielded from one mech and unjamming one mech only. The one you have targeted....

[Lupus Aurelius]

I wanted to spend a couple days evaluating and researching ECM in MWO, and the Battletech rules, instead of just knee-jerking a reaction.

Per the Classic BattleTech Master Rules, page 136:
http://www.lski.org/...20-%20Clear.pdf

"An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of
sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

Effects:

-Active Probes: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed.
-Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of the Artemis IV FCS. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but the Missile Hits Table bonus is lost.
-Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Missile Hits Table bonus for that system if they are affected by ECM. The Narc launcher itself is
not affected by ECM.
-C3 Computer: ECM has the effect of “cutting off” any C3 equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network by being inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network “below” it is effectively shut off (all units subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 135). Only those C3 units that can draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass into or through the ECM radius can access the network."

Based on the above, ECM should only cloak the mech it is mounted on, not all friendly units within the 180m radius. Narc should still allow targeting, but the missle bonus is lost, and transmitting targeting data should still work if line of sight with the "master unit" - which could be whoever grabs the commander function in a drop.

This would still allow for scouts to be stealthy and get targeting info for their team, or for heavier mechs, allow for the ablity to hide location of part of their force if those mechs have ECM equipped. LRMs and Streaks would be less effective/not effective against those units, but still would be effective against non-ECM equipped mechs.


ATM, overall this is having a negative impact on gameplay. For PUGs, or 4 man groups with PUGs, since you have no idea what you will drop with, it almost forces everyone to select an ECM capable mech equipped with ECM. This limits or removes the ablity to run with a preferred mech and configuration, reducing the variety of game play and limiting tactics to hiding under the ECM umbrella.

For 8 man group drops it's even worse. After over a dozen drops, what we saw was:
-9 of the 12 had 2 ECM fast mechs and 6 assaults fit for short range punch. Of those 9, 7 had over 4 Atlas D-DCs!
-7 of the matches were straight out base rush under ECM cover, with no attempt to engage in any kind of tactics.
-4 of those matches had the enemy all crowded around their base under the ECM umbrella.
-1 match there was an actual engagement mid map with some attempt at movement and tactics.
-3 of the matches had an actual spread of mechs from lights to assaults that gave a balance of capabilities.

Add to that that the 8 man premade drops has no balancing mechanism as far as tonnage or composition, and you have a very static type of gameplay developing, where assaults, the Raven and the Cicada are the only things you will find most of the time, This limits the variety of gameplay possible, and also forces play based around a very limited composition and fit.

[Lynxal]

Ignoring the general balancing issues everyone is discussing, and the fact games now look like a 4 year old "bumble bee" style soccer match, ECM in the current form introduces a major problem to the game for pugs.

There is no voice system for the game and the chat system is poor and nearly impossible to use while fighting. Premades are all on vent/skype/TeamSpeak/Mumble and so this issue doesnt effect them, only pugs.

You could always sneak up behind someone to avoid showing up on radar, this requires a degree of luck, skill and planning.

The problem with ECM is that someone covering a direction/rear/tunnel can be staring at 5 mechs and fighitng against 5 mechs and your team doesn't know because they don't register on radar and the chat system is so poor communication to your team before you explode is difficult. An entire fight can take place and not once will an enemy register because the likelyhood of actually being within 180 yards is so small.

The visual que and the audible que of an enemy mech on radar is a necessary form of communication for pugs when the chat system is so poor.

ECM introduces a larger issue than weapon balancing and tactics when the majority of your player base is going to be pugs.

[Pando]

Thatguyoverthere, on 04 December 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

I've had the chance to play several games immediately after the patch today, and I want to say this: ECM is great! It really does redefine gameplay.

The ability to flank the enemy in a Raven accompanied by several heavier mechs (some with LRMs) and be invisible to radar / LRM fire is amazing in itself. It brings in a new level of strategy to countering enemy ECM / making the most out of your own.

Just throwing this out there!

Also: I noticed that while in Thermal Vision Mode, there seems to be rings expanding out from my mech's location across the ground (like ripples on the terrain), is this unique to ECM equipped mechs? It's pretty interesting.

Agree, ECM is a game-changer. P.ublic U.norginized G.rouping "PUG'ing" has changed for the better. 8v8 launching is AMAZING. It's went from 3-4 minute speed-games to 12-15 minute tactical engagements. Very intense gameplay, I am in love all over again with MWO.

ECM has made bad players worse. ECM has made teamwork and resource management really factor into gameplay. ECM is not be-all'end-all. It does not ruin non-ecm capible mechs. ECM is not "OP".

Teamwork is the new black.
Streak-cats are still viable IN A TEAM SETTING
LRM's are still viable IN A TEAM SETTING
Game feels more and more like "mechwarrior" each patch.

Looking forward to future patches.

[SpookShow]

HAvent really thought this through but my idea is to limit ECM to the Raven and maybe the commando. At the same time make ECM an Elite pilot skill so you have to grind all three variants before you can use it.

Severely limiting use without beating the crap out of it with the nerf bat in my opinion is the best way forward on this issue and please devs make NARC permanent until destroyed.

[Walrus Jockey]

locilocisu, on 06 December 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

But that's exactly the problem with ECMs. It doesn't really have any drawback for the Mech that chooses to equip it other than some minimal extra tonnage.

Any Mech that can mount ECM would mount it, without any consideration since the drawback is insignificant. I think this is bad design. You always want people to consider whether to do one thing is good or bad, decision making, and reward people when they make a good decision. Nothing is to be gained without decision making in a game.

If people starts thinking... hmm maybe it'd be better to drop the ECM for some extra ammo... that's a good thing! Or extra laser or ECM... that's a good thing!

As of now, the drawback of putting on an ECM is way to small compared to the benefit you gain from it.

The BAP is a good example of a good "balanced" item. The benefit and the tonnage it takes make people consider its inclusion or not.

In some way the drawback is that the mechs that can equip ECM are variants that were ment to take support rolls. They are design around the idea that if you're using support equipment like ECM, Command Module, C3 etc. they would sacrifice some of the hard points or have what would on the surface look like weird hard point configurations. This isn't a one to one trade off though and isnt ment to penalize you for wanting o run that variant, it just how the variants were originally designed. The support mechs wouldn't be bristling with weapons, they would be part of the core of a lance, or set of lances. You would protect them, and in turn they would give you their advantage. And when I say "when they were designed" I'm talking about back in the 80', when the Tech Readouts started being printed. This is were 90% of what we see in MWO comes from. With changes being made where it make since to translate the game mechanics from a Turn Base Strategy game, to a First Person Tacticle Simulator.

So if you look at the mech from the perspective of "I want to top the score board or get a lot of kills", then these variants shouldn't be a gleaming gem in your arsenal, but if you want to run support then yes this piece of equipment sets you appart and gives the support mech variants the ability to fullfill their fundamental role.

I personally never liked the ATL-D-DC, preferring the K instead, but now that ECM is here, it makes the D-DC worth the time to learn how to pilot. Or course I'm a brawler by trade so the ECM doesn't effect me, I'm always going to want to close range on you, and never rely on targeting for fire selection. Once your lance is in the bubble, ECM doesn't matter anymore, and it should matter to your opponents, because if your doing it right, your going to take the ECM carrier out first, and then let your long range support start putting fire on them. Break contact, regroup, and get ready for what happens next.

Sometimes the counter to a good Tech is better strategy..

Edited by Ceistant, 06 December 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[Not a Number]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

[…]

I don't believe ECM actually makes a mech invisible according to the BT rules. It only really affects anything within its range of 180M. Correct me if I'm wrong. If it would also prevent missiles from being tracked all the way to the target – without a TAG countering that – like I and some others suggested, it would still be effective against missile attacks for both the ECM equipped mech and its nearby allies inside the bubble.

I do feel NARC should not be able to broadcast through the ECM bubble. Imagine if a NARC beacon had a longer duration (say a minute): with a little bit of teamwork a friendly ECM could be used to interfere with its signal. That would make for some interesting gameplay.

Right now NARC is still not good enough to directly justify such a counter, but it will be buffed to 20s in the near future. Plus, if a counter like this were actually available, that could also be justification to buff it even further. Like to the aforementioned one minute.

Previous post here: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1558937.

Edited by Not a Number, 06 December 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Phatel]

All I can hear is the sound of your streakcat rusting from the tears you are crying upon it.

ECM is fine, I have no mechs with it and find it to be a non-issue and adds a lot to depth and strategy. What it does do wich doesn't bother me in the least is limit the number of players I'm forced to carry because they want to hang 1k meters back and push 1 forcing the often smaller mechs to brawl because their atlas is busy not mitigating any damage at all. Oh it also got rid of the A1 build where you got a lock then ran around jumping in circles and killing people with no skill from screen shake and autoaim weapons.

So get a new mech, go out and shoot stuff. Pretty simple and enjoyable atm.

Edited by Phatel, 06 December 2012 - 10:54 AM.