2028 replies to this topic

[Tuonela]

I like the effect and idea of information warfare, I don't think one 1.5 ton item should nullify so many other things like all LRMs, BAP, Narc, and to some extent TAG. Its too cheap for its tonnage and needs more balance around the other items, which are in some cases vastly more expensive (Artemis) to install.

ECM currently does 2 separate things. At long range it hides friendlies, and at close range it screws up enemy sensors. I would prefer, for item balance, for it to do one of these things only. Either reduce the target acquisition range to 2-300 meters, OR utterly disrupt enemy sensors at point blank.

I would also like NARC and TAG to work in close range, and BAP to extend the 200 meter range at which you can currently target the enemy. These updates would make it still worthwhile but not the god of all equipment.

In pug fights, the team with good communication wins with ECM, its a fair constant.

In pre-mades, its not a big unbalancer because people already talk. However, it does tend to promote two extremes. Either total turtling or full out blast/assault.

By far the worst part of ECM though is the utter uselessness of LRMs in premade combat.

Edited by Tuonela, 06 December 2012 - 08:28 PM.

[Kahoumono]

I am going to lean towards the ECM being a bit too powerful at the moment, not drastic, just a little bit. I am running at an average of 250ping since I am playing from Asia so its already difficult to score hits with point and shoot weapons. I don't have any spare mechbays so I haven't tried using a mech with ECM, I suspect its one of those "must equip" items. Isn't ECM supposed to be specialist equipment? You may get one or two in an entire regiment...not that I want to stick by the BT lore. This game is about pros and cons, lasers or ballastics, long range or short range, speed or power, there is no real con for the ECM at the moment.

I would like to see streaks being able to dumbfire when you are being jammed. Also, perhaps only the mech you target is unable to get missle lock on their targets (the 2x lock-on time applies for everyone else of course). I feel its difficult enough to get a lock on with the 2x lock-on if you are running around properly. Or decrease the dead-zone of the jamming. 180 meters is 2/3 of ssrm range, in a fast mech that distance is a split second and not enough to get a lock on. The point of a light mech is to get in and out not to sit in the middle of a giant melee with heavies and assaults which is what you see with ECM in its current state.

[CrackDr]

For the most part I can appreciate what ECM does, although it basically makes my Jenner useless in more then half the battles now, and I really don't appreciate being forced into using other mechs I have no interest in, or having to load up my mech bay with multiple variations just because. I do use streaks, and have used SRM's previous, but with the FPS dropping way into the red since the last few patches, using SRM's is pretty much useless. Plus, did any one consider how much harder it is going to be to gain experience in certain mech chasis? Seems like a lot of headache for one little system. They could just make it so friendly ECM negates other friendly ECM (allowing the mechs to turn it off and on if they run solo). I know that is not how it works but it would make it more of a tactical tool, then something everyone has on during combat just trying to over power one another. Just an idea anyways.

[ScientificMethod]

ECM needs to be entirely reconceptualized. SSRM and LRM's had some power issues but creating a situation where they either don't work or do work isn't the answer. For only 1.5 tons the ECM does way too much.

I realize that a number of the organized groups love ECM. I don't know how much they've seen ECM from the receiving end though. Since this patch I've dropped solo, with a few friends, and with larger house drops (trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong). Here's what happened.

Solo:
What generally happens is my group has one ECM loaded mech(generally the first mech to get cherry picked by the enemey), the pugs work well and stick together until our flank mechs increasingly drop off the radar. The kill count hasn't increased by this point so I always hope the group will respond in an organized fashion to defend itself. This never happens, as soon as the ECM disruption hits all semblance of working together disappears. Regardless of the attacking force's size the team without ECM gets taken apart piecemeal When I pilot mediums and larger I can take out one to two enemies but by then my teammates are dead and I have 4 fresh mechs to deal with when I can't keep radar contact and they never break it.

With my friends:
My small merc corps dropped patch day. It went terribly we constantly were 0-8ed by units we've consistently beaten pre-ECM. Granted we weren't using ECM. This brings me to my main point 1.5 tons shouldn't have that large an effect. MW:O has turned into ECM WarriorOnline. If you don't drop with it, you cannot be competitive in premade or lonewolf drops. Which is exactly what I found out in my latest and last trip of discovery for this last patch.

With those more knowledgeable than I:
I got into and talked with some "competitive" large groups to find out what I was doing wrong. The first thing wrong about me was my lack of an ECM capable mech in my mechbay, the next thing was that I thought of using things other than SSRM's on my lights, the next thing was that I used medium mechs. By this point I've just decided to not drop until things are fixed, as much as I try the game just isn't fun anymore.



Now that I've vented I'll do my best to be constructive in my criticism. ECM is broken, at 1.5 tons it offers the ability to completely break the organizational ability of any pug drop (I don't have numbers but I bet pug stomping by premades has actually increased after this patch). Allowing it only on four chassis has been put forward as a balancing mechanism but all that did was force players that wanted to be successful into 4 of an impressive 44 possible mechs. There is some leniency if your mech would fit in a steiner scout lance as well. In my opinion ECM manages to discourage a huge number of chassis as well as entire weight classes.

[Namicus]

I really like the addition of ecm to the game, but for the love of God, please keep it restricted to only a couple of mechs. If most or all mechs are able to equip, the game balance will be broken big time.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

HOW ECM SHOULD WORK:

1. Normal mode = significantly increases the lock-on time of all enemy mechs in a radius around the ECM carrying mech (affects SSRMs and LRMs)

2. Disrupt mode = completely prevents 1 enemy mech (the targeted mech) from firing.

[pilger]

Waladil, on 05 December 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

So... anyone here watch Extra Credits? An episode they did recently has very direct influence on how ECM is borked.
http://penny-arcade....de/counter-play

The episode is very entertaining, and I advise you guys (players and devs alike) to watch it. But if you don't feel like it, I'll summarize.

If you want to put in a feature (such as ECM), think about how it's fun not just to USE but also to fight AGAINST.

So, ECM. How is it fun to use? Well, it screws with your enemy's targeting, prevents LRMs and SSRMs from being effective, and prevents your enemies from getting detailed damage info and coring you easier. So the use is pretty darn fun!
But how is it fun to counter? Well, to counter ECM you want to... um... use ECM. Or a TAG laser, to some extent. But wait! If you've got a TAG laser, stay over 180 meters from their ECM 'mech, or they will automatically counter your counter. Really, the only EFFECTIVE counter is your own ECM. TAG is simply not an effective counter because it requires constant LoS targeting by a 'mech that is over 180m from the enemy, but not over 450m. I mounted a TAG on my 'mech just for that purpose and it is highly ineffective. Largely because it requires me to constantly target an enemy, which I can't do when there's five of them and I'm in an Awesome. Because they'll core me in about two seconds flat.

So how is ECM fun to counter: Answer? Unless you have an ECM-capable 'mech, it's not fun. Not fun at all.


My suggestion: Have an item that can be mounted on ANY 'mech that PARTIALLY counters ECM. How about this: if you have BAP on your 'mech, then your targeting computer cuts through ECM. (Possibly at reduced range? For this example, I'll go with one-half standard target range)
So, if you've got BAP:
And you're over 400m from an enemy protected by ECM: You can't target them unless a teammate shares info.
And you're over 180m but under 400m from an enemy protected by ECM: you can target them normally and share target information.
And you're under 180m: YOU can target them normally (including missile lock), but you CANNOT send that information out to your teammates.

As I'm thinking about this, I'm worried that might over-nerf ECM, but that is most easily balanced at the targeting range. My first thought was standard target range (800m), my second one-half (400m). Right now I'm actually considering either 200m or 250m. (200m: Standard targeting range against ECM. 250: Standard targeting range against ECM + 25% BAP bonus).

So this would install BAP as a PARTIAL counter to enemy ECM, preventing some of its painful effects.

Awesome reference and video. Perfectly portraits the ECM commotion.

[Stingz]

Vulix, on 06 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

I think how ECM functions is fine, but I believe there needs to be a higher cost towards equipping it. Right now too many people can casually load ECM and still create a very powerful mech they can play very aggressively with. It is almost a no-brainer to run ECM right now if you can afford it, and I believe it shouldn't be such a trivial decision. Make it cost more slot\ton wise

Changes based on slots/tonnage won't happen, since that would break stock builds with ECM (RVN-3L is one right now).

[p4r4g0n]

Feedback from a Solo Pugger.

ECM works as described in the various announcements. Can't really conclude that it is OP but it is a game changer.

If the current game changes that have been described in previous posts is what PGI was aiming for / intended, I have the following suggestions:-

• Every trial mech should have ECM at least until you have a good tutorial out. New players have no idea what they are doing and leaving the ECM umbrella in a non-ECM mech = die fast ... actually, die faster than pre-ECM.

• On / Off switch for ECM. Last thing I want as a scout is my ECM giving me away when I've just managed to sneak up behind a target.

• Limited duration for use of ECM i.e. it can be one use or reusable after a cool down period to increase tactical play.

• Streak SRMs should capable of being dumb fired without lock. SSRM costs should be sufficiently high that it dissuades players from using them as replacements for SRM.

• Imperative that a USABLE system of text chat communication be implemented as ECM usage makes communications even more essential. No game ever has 100% VOIP adoption regardless of how integrated VOIP is in game.

• There needs to be some way to visually identify allied / enemy mechs while under ECM umbrella. It would also help with the no HUD bug

Solo Pugger's Take on ECM

If you have a mech that can use ECM, there is zero reason not to use it because it has NO significant penalties for doing so in terms of combat effectiveness. Other non-mech variants of Commando & Raven are basically useless because a Jenner is still a way better light non-ECM mech to use.

Start mastering the ECM capable mechs NOW so you don't have to depend on others for ECM if you want it.

The additional level of complexity is making the new player experience much worse since they are limited to non-ECM trial mechs. However, if they had ECM equipped trial mechs, they could contribute to the team even without firing a shot and possibly survive a little longer.

Alternative to using ECM is to just use heavies and encourage other solo puggers to use heavies to reduce the number of ECM mechs in a match.

Dropping with LRMs and SSRMs are not really worth it for the few times you may actually use it with lock nor in indirect fire mode (LRMs only). If you play with high latency and have zero ability to deal with lights using lasers, ballistics or SRMs, try using another mech.

Learn to brawl with lasers and ballistics while compensating for 200+ms - 300+ms latency AND / OR find best base rush routes.

Personal View

I liked the previous game play where the game basically had 2 -3 phases in them (yeah, some times happens even in PUG games). Removing LRMs as a factor in the game seems to have somewhat simplified game play IMO. ECM has not made the game unplayable but it does seem to be more limited and repetitive ... not sure on this, will have to keep playing to see.

Also, I find it ridiculous that ONE piece of equipment, not even a weapon has totally altered the game play. The intended effects are fine if restricted to the ECM equipped mech, not so much when it can be used by all other allied mechs. As currently implemented, I can't agree with those still asking for ECM to be available for every mech.

ECM should not be the solution to LRMs / SSRMs boating ... at least I hope that was not the intent. There has to be a better solution e.g. multiple grades for missile hardpoints where grade 1 = SRMs, grade 2 = LRMs / SSRMs, grade 3 = any missile type.

What I would have liked was for ECM to be mech-specific and used by scouts to enhance their scouting / spotting roles and countered by BAP used by scout killers.

Edited by p4r4g0n, 06 December 2012 - 10:00 PM.

[ekestrel]

My impressions, playing as Commando ECM with three SRM4s with exclusively PUGs:

It feels too strong. As a bubble 360 m in diameter, you can easily run an entire group free from locks and missiles until brawling. Snipers can't see you coming, and have little incentive to snipe when ECM mechs can sneak up and alpha into their back at will. Add in another ECM, and there's no excuse to get hit by LRMs. They can't get or maintain lock unless a suicidal ECMer or TAGer comes in to spot. LRMs have disappeared, and now we get the mass cluster in the middle.

Which, in all honesty, is fun! If no one moves to cap, you actually get some hard combat. But in the change from before, we've seen some of these progressions: LRM Boating super hard, Gauss Kitties all over the place, SSRM boating to counter netcode, Cataphract artillery making the game a long range duel, and now ECM creating knifefight environments. The problem, as with these other progressions of the beta, remains where some weapons become almost useless, especially compared to their TT equivalents.* This isn't fun for those people, and makes some 'mechs useless. Got a Jenner? You should be rolling ECM Raven. Got a non-Gauss kitty? better have SRMs or hope your PUG has a TAG or ECM Counter. Got a Dragon? I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry.**

My recommendation is for the ECM to shield the closest friendly mech within 180 meters, if it keeps all other properties. No more battleforce moving without any detection by sticking with the ECM mech. No more bubble effect keeps LRMs and Streaks relatively viable. Scouts retain much of their viability, but other ECM users get to start pairing up. This also keeps the versatility for weight-balanced matches, so with 850 tons, you'd better get used to running at least four lights for your two ECM Atlases and two Hunchies.***

This would also help with some of the problems; sure, you can drift from mech to mech for shielding, but the enemy team would be better able to counter with a TAG or shifting targeting. Likewise, it minimizes the effect of a single piece of 1.5 ton gear. Right now, it can cover seven battlemechs more effectively from LRMs than a dozen AMS with three tons of ammo each.

*Yes, I know TT isn't being used anymore, but it's fairly decently balanced in comparison.
**Yes, I'm kidding, so haters can shut it.
***This is an example, no one knows exactly the weight on 8v8s yet.

[Dafydd Gwynfardd]

Broke the game, now everyone runs with ECM. I can see it on light mechs perhaps in order to get by the LRM boats, but others don't need it.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

here its from BattleTech-TechManual

ECM SUITE
ntroduced:2597 (Terran Hegemony)
Extinct:2845 (Inner Sphere)
Recovered:3045 (Capellan Confederation)
Around the end of the Reunification War, Johnston Industries
(a Terran Hegemony company, working in partnership with Yelm
Weapons of Fletcher) debuted the Guardian ECM suite on the newly
deployed Nightshade VTOL. This broad-spectrum jamming and
electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare
(EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems
had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional
electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and
smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical
bubble roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to
and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe,
Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV—all while simultaneously keeping
friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear
Even today, the Guardian’s recovered technology remains highly
adaptable, not only capable of recognizing and countering the EW features of its Star League counterparts but also newer technologies such
as the C3 and C3i systems. The Capellan Confederation has expanded
on the Guardian’s utility with their new stealth armor system, a new
role that will assure this powerful piece of technology a place on the
battlefield for the foreseeable future.
Predictably, the refined (and name-brand free) Clan version of the
Guardian achieves the same effects with a third less weight and half
as much bulk. Though the technology was largely in decline for a time
among Kerensky’s children, their return to the Inner Sphere and the
growing preponderance of EW systems has prompted more and more
Clan machines to hit the field armed with ECM systems

can some1 find me anything about jamming sensors/radar outside 180m bubble?
Sry for colours but i copypasted it from PDF

Edited by JudgeDeathCZ, 06 December 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Anuri]

My experience:

2 Ecm per group and mixed mech units = great fun. Being ***** by 8 atlases with ECM is not fun.

Solution - make 1 counter set ECM to affect all ecm in a larger radius (say 400).

[Dakota]

Xeren KelDar, on 04 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Finally, these may be bugged issues or not, but it seems ECM is blocking targetting for me even while I maintain LoS to target. If bugged or intended I think it needs to be looked into. This has happened to me at less than 90m (ECM bubble), 200m, and out to 600-800 all while I could plainy see the target. Blocking the lockable weapons (SSRM) seems to be the intent and I'm ok with that, but totally negating the red box which really does nothing to direct fire weapons seems excessive. One you lose LoS, I'd be ok with the ninja raven dropping off targetting/radar/etc.

I actually LIKE the fact that the enemy mech can't be targeted with the box. it allows them to be more stealthy, and direct fire weapons still work just fine. My main desire for ECM WAS to have the red box not be there, so if i decided to be a scout, i could use cover to try and stay hidden. It was annoying that even if i was in DEEP tree cover, the enemy could always see me. in Table Top, deep cover cloaks ANY mech (although it also prevents you from seeing them), but at least this way, there is a way to hide and spy.

[Phingers]

The day after ECM came in I already knew what was coming.....wow ECM Is cool thanks PGI etc etc etc.....bleh....and now everyone is getting into one of the ECM mechs.....choice is broken, High ping teams will and are constantly losing to low ping ballistic and laser, SRM brawls, thanks to poor net code.

Been playing way too many games these last 30 years to see you missed the idea of "COUNTERPLAY".

and those players running around in ECM Bubbled Atlas DDC say 4 of them with a couple of heavy SRM Cat or Guass Cataphrats, and 2 scout Ravens ECM and nice low pings.... its just either march to other base or stay on cap and duke it out. Yeah your gameplay is going to be so exciting in the coming months if they dont fix this crap.....you will be playing with way less players.

[Mordin Ashe]

ECM effectively destroyed the game for many non-US guys. Why? Lock-on weapons are out of use, and with no information on EU servers and lolish netcode, there is simply no weapon EU guys can hit reliably with. Sad, but true ... which in return somehow makes it even more sad!

[MasterKarzash]

ArmageddonKnight, on 04 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

ECM's on light mechs has made them even more of a PITA to kill than they were previosly. Add on to the fact that light mechs also do to much dmg to heavier mechs imo ..makes them extremly OP. i've played light mechs ..and they are a joke ..you can pritty much beat any other heaveier mech ..evem more so now if you put on a ECM.
SSRM's used to be a good idea ..even one of them on an otherwise laser or projectile mech helped deal with the pesky light mechs that would constantly be to fast for you to hit. Now though you cant lock onto them ether.
Light mechs need their hardpoints limited to light weopns only ..no more medium pulse laser ..or large laser. .or ppc's etc. Then make these light weapons do even less dmg than they currently do. This will make it so lights can only really dmg vs other lights and make them be used for their intended prupose .. Scouting.
Other than that however. ECM seems like a good anti ML boat at close range ..which is good.
I just know that currently light mechs should ether a) not be able to use ECM (which is silly imo as they are for scouting and should be able ot use EW) or b ) be made so they do very very little dmg vs heavier mechs via weapo limitations ..which is much more realistic.

WHAT the heck are you on? First off there are only TWO light mechs that can equip the darned ECM so dont get your panties in a bunch. SECOND if you dont have the skill to take on a light mech in a heavier mech then you seriously need to re-evaluate your skills as a pilot because they are sorely lacking. Third, i can somewhat see the weapon specificications, but before you go whining about the Raven who PPC'd you in the back howabout you stop and think "What are they losing do to that?" The heavier weapons give higher Heat meaning they shut down more, if you dont take advantage of that then sucks to be you. On top of that the heavier the weapon the smaller the engine, or less armored a light mech is.

I personally think that ECM has changed things in a combination of ways that make certain things worse and certain things better. At the very least this tech will weed out those people who just dont have the skill to be mech pilots but cant face it so they blame it on the Devs.

Edited by BunnyBacon, 06 December 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[Invisibleone CZE]

ECM is good, but why they put it on streak commando?

[Al Bert]

Waladil, on 05 December 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

So... anyone here watch Extra Credits? An episode they did recently has very direct influence on how ECM is borked.
http://penny-arcade....de/counter-play

The episode is very entertaining, and I advise you guys (players and devs alike) to watch it. But if you don't feel like it, I'll summarize.

If you want to put in a feature (such as ECM), think about how it's fun not just to USE but also to fight AGAINST.

So, ECM. How is it fun to use? Well, it screws with your enemy's targeting, prevents LRMs and SSRMs from being effective, and prevents your enemies from getting detailed damage info and coring you easier. So the use is pretty darn fun!
But how is it fun to counter? Well, to counter ECM you want to... um... use ECM. Or a TAG laser, to some extent. But wait! If you've got a TAG laser, stay over 180 meters from their ECM 'mech, or they will automatically counter your counter. Really, the only EFFECTIVE counter is your own ECM. TAG is simply not an effective counter because it requires constant LoS targeting by a 'mech that is over 180m from the enemy, but not over 450m. I mounted a TAG on my 'mech just for that purpose and it is highly ineffective. Largely because it requires me to constantly target an enemy, which I can't do when there's five of them and I'm in an Awesome. Because they'll core me in about two seconds flat.

So how is ECM fun to counter: Answer? Unless you have an ECM-capable 'mech, it's not fun. Not fun at all.


My suggestion: Have an item that can be mounted on ANY 'mech that PARTIALLY counters ECM. How about this: if you have BAP on your 'mech, then your targeting computer cuts through ECM. (Possibly at reduced range? For this example, I'll go with one-half standard target range)
So, if you've got BAP:
And you're over 400m from an enemy protected by ECM: You can't target them unless a teammate shares info.
And you're over 180m but under 400m from an enemy protected by ECM: you can target them normally and share target information.
And you're under 180m: YOU can target them normally (including missile lock), but you CANNOT send that information out to your teammates.

As I'm thinking about this, I'm worried that might over-nerf ECM, but that is most easily balanced at the targeting range. My first thought was standard target range (800m), my second one-half (400m). Right now I'm actually considering either 200m or 250m. (200m: Standard targeting range against ECM. 250: Standard targeting range against ECM + 25% BAP bonus).

So this would install BAP as a PARTIAL counter to enemy ECM, preventing some of its painful effects.

Very good post in my eyes. Nice episode to watch. I also thought before of why BAP does not allow to counter ECM - the restriction of the "countering possibility" to the limited choice of using 4 out of 44 possible mech variants to have a counter-ECM with you is not a good idea. This bad idea, together with the not-matchmaking-for-8-premades currently limits very much the fun for me playing in a group (PUG having there own issue). In yesterday's drops with 8 premade, we (balanced lance: light, medium, heavy, assault) encountered usually groups with at least 3-4 Atlas, 1-2 awesome/cataphracts and ECM ravens/commando. So, yes: ECM changes the battlefield but currently it drastically reduces the fun factor.

Al Bert

Edited by Al Bert, 06 December 2012 - 11:22 PM.

[sp1ce weezl]

Mordin Ashe, on 06 December 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

ECM effectively destroyed the game for many non-US guys. Why? Lock-on weapons are out of use, and with no information on EU servers and lolish netcode, there is simply no weapon EU guys can hit reliably with. Sad, but true ... which in return somehow makes it even more sad!

I am a EU player and dont have any props with hitting my designated target.
That said, I must admit I am playing one of those pesky speedy little light mechs, but I think the balance of ECM is out there, people just need to get their used gameplay adjusted to it, instead of whining around. I understand that people will be ****ed off by the way I put it, but I'm fairly p***ed off as well by those who complain about a new game mechanic the moment it gets implemented into a game.
To be fair, people were complaining befor it got implemented, directly after it, and some already think they can project the impact of it for the future.
Guys, I'm interested in a competitive and balanced gameplay as well. Nobody whants the game to be broken. But for gods sake please be more patient, I'm confident if it turns out that there are issues with this and the data backs that up, it will be fixed. Its a beta.