47 replies to this topic

[moneyBURNER]

Gowan, on 06 December 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

As per the dev posts on the subject, heat is the primary balancing mechanism for combat right now. It isn't perfect, obviously, but that's the plan. "Real" DHS made heat a non-issue, removing the primary balancing mechanism from the game for 1.5 million C-bills. They are how they are because real doubles literally broke the game. Changing the way DHS function to preserve some semblance of balance sounds reasonable to me (although I'm not sure 1.4 is the right balance).

The devs have said many things that have put their credibility into question. How can real DHS break the game when they provide at most a ~20% improvement over the current system, to the heavier mechs that need it most? If that amount is game-breaking, then they should never have included cooling bonuses as mech skills, in order to allow DHS to operate normally for the sake of much-needed consistency and intuitiveness.

[Gowan]

HighTest, on 06 December 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

I don't agree that this ends up being a balancing mechanism. You could argue that 2.0x DHS would allow some mechs to run 4 ERPPCs at the same time. Sure, you can probably build one, maybe even with 20 DHS. But I guarantee that even with 20 2.0x DHS, that sucker is going to be real hard to keep cool. One Alpha could easily cause an overheat on its own if you were much above 0 heat to start.

Even still, that's 40 damage per alpha. I have one Centurion with 1 AC2, 2 MLAS and 3 SRM6s. At close range that's currently up to 57 points of damage per Alpha PLUS I can lay into the AC2 for 10 more points for 3 seconds. And I can Alpha it 3, maybe 4 times before I shut down. And since it's faster than non-XL Atlases and Awesomes, you can guess how this often ends.

Right now I'm convinced that 1.4x DHS are actively nerfing heavy and assault mechs, and from the number of times I've seen Atlases and Awesomes picked apart by 30-50 ton mechs, I'm saying the nerf is way too heavy. And I don't think bumping them to 2.0x is nearly likely to cause a shift to the opposite side -- it'll probably just bring things more in line. Why would anyone want to pilot a big mech when one small ones could tear it to shreds?

Not balanced.

Like I said, imperfect -- but that's not my opinion, it's the end goal of the guys making the game.

[Capp]

moneyBURNER, on 06 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

The devs have said many things that have put their credibility into question. How can real DHS break the game when they provide at most a ~20% improvement over the current system, to the heavier mechs that need it most? If that amount is game-breaking, then they should never have included cooling bonuses as mech skills, in order to allow DHS to operate normally for the sake of much-needed consistency and intuitiveness.

The last heat-testing thread I read concluded that those bonuses don't actually do anything, anyway.

[Justin Xang Allard]

i have noticed that the heat dissapation remains the same as before when switching to dhs... the only change i have seen is when you add a dhs, i could be wrong, but i dont think i am.

[HighTest]

Gowan, on 06 December 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Like I said, imperfect -- but that's not my opinion, it's the end goal of the guys making the game.

Agreed. Which is the reason why I'm making these posts and attempting to provide mathematical evidence -- in order to try to help the PGI gang to regain their senses.

I don't have very strong opinions on a lot of stuff discussed on these forums, but this is one place I think the devs are really missing the boat.

Edited by HighTest, 07 December 2012 - 06:04 AM.

[canned wolf]

My guess is that the devs didn't sit down with a calculator. Like the armor values, they play tested it. And like the armor values, having 2.0 DHS broke the game. Most likely it cut match times down to an amount that was unacceptable, or made one or more weight classes obsolete.

Edited by canned wolf, 10 December 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Postumus]

Whats all this garbage about "DHS dont increase cooling over a SHS setup, need 2.0?" Considering every heat sink in your engine is effectively doubled, and that these represent the majority of heat sinks in most mechs, this is patently ridiculous. If anything DHS is a required upgrade for maximum effectiveness, except on mechs that need alot of ammo, or maybe assault class laser boats, where the critical space is more useful. Even on non-laser assaults, where it might theoretically be possible to get better cooling with singles, you are sacrificing the tonnage gained from using DHS for a very minor benefit.

[HighTest]

HighTest, on 06 December 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Wolf - The problem is, if you only get additional HSs that output at 1.4x, you are correct, it doesn't make sense for bigger mechs to field them. If they were 2.0x, you'd need fewer HS (and thus fewer slots) to pack more weapons. My AWS-8V has 28 SHS, not because it was in any way efficient, but because I didn't have the crit slots for them. Here is the math:

28 SHS = 9 engine (240) and 19 non-engine HS, so 19 tons and 19 crit slots above the actual engine.

To get 28 cooling out of lame DHS, engine has (9 x 2 = 18 cooling), so I need 10 cooling / 1.4 = 7.14, rounded up = 8 lame DHS = 8 tons and 24 crit slots!!! Sure, I save a bunch of weight, but I lose a ton of crits to place stuff! Sure, I get a tiny extra bit of cooling, but at the cost of 5 slots I don't have. And remember, you need 3 consecutive slots to fit them into, negating CT and legs.

To get 28 cooling with proper DHS, engine has (9 x 2 = 18), so I need 10 cooling / 2 = 5 real DHS = 5 tons and only 15 crit slots.

So... the REASON that heavy / assault mechs generally HAVE to run SHSs, at least with heavy energy loads, is because running DHSs as they stand in many cases actually make it HARDER to add more weaponry to compensate for things like slower speed, etc. If you had proper DHSs, you could actually add some stuff to your Atlas that might HELP you compete with the little Cicada with it's 6 MLAS running circles around you. Which might actually make it somewhat worth the 1.5m CBills currently charged to get DHSs.

Actually, my point is that having 1.4x DHS is entirely not viable for heavier mech builds. Which gives lights and mediums a distinct advantage in damage, over and above the already clear advantages in smaller hit areas and greater speed making it harder to lead a target, etc. See my math above.

And if you argue that lights/mediums have less armor, fine, call it a wash with them being so much harder to hit. Then why do they still get the added benefit of being able to more effectively carry DHS?