25 replies to this topic

[RedDragon]

As discussed in this thread, the AC's seen (and heard) in the videos released so far don't really sound like one would imagine a large autocannon to sound like. Especially the AC/20 used by the Atlas and Hunchback IMO should spew forth a hail of large metal shells in a large muzzle-flash while roaring like a hurricane and rocking one's mech back from the recoil. Mechwarrior 3 did it best so far, there you could begin to feel the power behind the weapon.
The AC/20 is the most powerful weapon on the battlefield and I think a simple *pop* followed by a loud *clang* doesn't do it enough justice, especially since the other weapons (lasers and missiles) are way more present in the vids.

So in case the effects used now are not only placeholders for later effects, I'd like to ask the Devs if they could rethink the visuals and sounds that accompany the autocannons. As the above linked thread shows, I think there is much support for this request. The game looks so beautiful as of now, it would be a shame if the autocannons wouldn't get their share in cool effects

Gigaton linked to a nice vid of something one could consider an autocannon today:

.

Naturally an AC would have a higher firing speed, but the sound comes pretty close IMO.

FlyingDebris even showed us how a Hunchbackl firing its AC/20 could look like:



Any feedback from the Devs is appreciated - if you already plan on improving the effects, never mind this topic. If not, maybe the feedback gathered here may give you some useful input to work with

[Atlai]

Eh there not really that bad i like the clank

Edited by Mason West, 13 May 2012 - 07:23 AM.

[HeIIequin]

Something to also remember is that things don't sound as loud when you're inside the cockpit. I mean, stand next to a helicopter taking off and it's pretty loud. Sit inside the heli and it sounds different. Though a dramatic muzzle flash would be nice.

[Strum Wealh]

IMO, and using real-world weapons as a basis:
AC-2
AC-5
AC-10
AC-20

For the larger guns, BT/MW ACs are essentially rapid-fire, auto-loading versions of the weapons depicted in the above videos.
Quite a bit of smoke, but not so much with the "giant clouds of flame"...

Also, it should be noted from the last video that there are several infantrymen standing in the immediate area of the 15-ton, 8" (203mm) howitzer, and that the MechWarrior (player) will generally be further away and inside an environmentally-sealed, armored cockpit (in addition to wearing a likely sound-insulated neurohelmet).
As such, the sound of the weapon's firing would be somewhat muffled, and the process of reloading the weapon (especially with the heavier ACs) being as much felt as heard, with an auditory "readiness sound" being triggered when the weapon is ready to fire again.

[RedDragon]

Strum Wealh, on 13 May 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

For the larger guns, BT/MW ACs are essentially rapid-fire, auto-loading versions of the weapons depicted in the above videos.
Quite a bit of smoke, but not so much with the "giant clouds of flame"...

Always depends on what weapon (and equipment like muzzle brake) is used. But I'd guess a nce big muzzle flash would be nice for a game like MW where 18m tall war machines spew forth fire and destruction

[Strum Wealh]

RedDragon, on 13 May 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Always depends on what weapon (and equipment like muzzle brake) is used. But I'd guess a nce big muzzle flash would be nice for a game like MW where 18m tall war machines spew forth fire and destruction

And part of the issue with still pictures like this one, as well as most movies, is that it gives a false impression of the duration (and, often, the intensity) of a muzzle flash.

The Army Research Laboratory performed a study on the muzzle flash of an AK-47, and found that it lasts for approximately 0.5 milliseconds (that is, 0.0005 seconds).

The ARL also performed a study on the muzzle flash of a 120mm tank gun firing M865 KE rounds. In that study, the muzzle flash had a duration on the order of 500 milliseconds (that is, 0.5000 seconds).

Given that and the footage linked above, the muzzle flash shown for the Atlas' AC-20 in the video (at the 11-second mark) seems fine.
If anything, the muzzle flash for the Machine Guns as shown on the Hunchback (Paul's "ForumUserKiller", wasn't it?), as shown from the 29-second mark onward, should be toned down substantially, yes?

[RedDragon]

Looks like a pretty big muzzle flash to me
Imagine that blast for a burst of several seconds...
We don't know the firing rate of an AC, but I'd guess it's a lot higher than what is shown in the videos of modern weapons, thus there could be a lot bigger flash from increased rate of fire.
Also don't forget that most AC's in Battltech have really short barrels, which further increases the muzzle flash.

Edited by RedDragon, 13 May 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[Helmer]

I agree that the sounds of the ACs seem a little too "weak" , however , as a gameplay mechanic I agree with PGIs decision to have 1 shot , concentrated damage Autocannons.

Especially as how they have chosen to alleviate boating with a damage over time system with lasers.

Concentrated damage is one of the advantages of the autocannon over a laser. Moving it to a stream of rounds , IMHO, turns ACs into heavier, ammo dependent, cool running lasers.




Cheers.

[Juiced]

I like the clank for the reloading sound. I would like to see more muzzle flash and louder sound though to demonstrate the size of the weapon.

[Sheilei]

It's true that the reloading clank should stay there, but the bang should be a lot louder. Right now the lasers make more noise than the AC's.
That just doesn't make sense.

[RedDragon]

Helmer, on 13 May 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

I agree that the sounds of the ACs seem a little too "weak" , however , as a gameplay mechanic I agree with PGIs decision to have 1 shot , concentrated damage Autocannons.

Especially as how they have chosen to alleviate boating with a damage over time system with lasers.

Concentrated damage is one of the advantages of the autocannon over a laser. Moving it to a stream of rounds , IMHO, turns ACs into heavier, ammo dependent, cool running lasers.




Cheers.

I know what you mean. I also thought about the problem that ACs with longer firing-streams would start spreading the damage instead of doing point-damage. I'd guess it should just be the other way around, lasers doing point damage and ACs spreading it, but that would be a balancing issue. There are some ways to implement burst-firing though. If the bursts are really fast, the only problem would be hitting fast moving mechs. In MW3 it wasn't really a problem to get all shots of a burst in one hit location. Firing at a fast moving mech or at weird angles you'd hit two locations at most. So if there is noticeable spread, maybe ACs could do slightly more damage to counter that.
You could also modify ACs so they will always hit what you're pointing at when shooting, i.e. the gun will stay centered if you move or follow the enemy if he moves. If the burst isn't longer than a second, that won't be a problem IMO.
Another solution would be to only have the first shell of a burst doing damage or determine the hit location only by the first impact. Again, if the bullets fly fast enough and the burst isn't too long, one will not notice that the last shells don't do any damage.

Making ACs single-shot may be a wise move from the balancing point of view, but aesthetically it's not a good idea IMO.

[AlanEsh]

Strum Wealh, on 13 May 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

... with an auditory "readiness sound" being triggered when the weapon is ready to fire again.

I want a cybernetic hand to pop out and slap me on the shoulder when my AC is reloaded.

[WhiteTiger]

I agree with RedDragon and those that want it to be streaming instead of the shotgun effect. Sort of like a gatlin gun but at a higher rate of fire. The sound would vary from a higher pitch whine for the AC2 to a very deep bass rumble for the AC20. The stream and sound would last for just a few seconds, which would still allow for the near concentrated damage (The only time concentrated damage should be allowed is when hit by a single projectile, such as the Guass projectile) By having it this way it would satisfy the way it is described in the novels and in the tech manuals, but will also allow for diversity for the different types of autocannon rounds. IMHO, the LBX should sound and react more like a shotgun.

[RedDragon]

I agree with you, WhitTiger, in all but one point - The LB-X autocannons should have basically the same effects as a normal autocannon, for the shells depart the barrel as usual and are split apart in mid-flight. That's IMO the reason for constant damage over all ranges - the shells either only split just before hitting the target or split in midflight but in a way that keeps the cluster close together. If it would be fired like a shotgun, I'd guess the spread would be a lot larger.

[Wolf Hreda]

A lot of people who read the books, especially the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, may remember that each "round" of ammunition for the autocannon is actually a cassette with up to 100 rounds (AC-20) in it. When you fired, it spent the whole cassette in a matter of seconds. Victor Davion dismisses a Centurion's AC-10 during a training mission only to realize too late that it was Yen Lo Wang, with the AC-20 that pretty much sanded his front armor to nothingness.

In game this could mean a few things. One, much flashier effects (almost always a good thing). Two, the more consistent chance of your autocannon NOT doing all the damage it potentially could. I aways disliked the fact that the AC-20 fired so slowly in the more modern games. The last Mechwarrior to have a rapid fire Autocannon was Mechwarrior 2, in which you still only had single rounds that ran out very quickly. It's my personal opinion that this is one of the first things that needs changing.

[XTRMNTR2K]

Wolf Hreda, on 17 May 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

A lot of people who read the books, especially the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, may remember that each "round" of ammunition for the autocannon is actually a cassette with up to 100 rounds (AC-20) in it. When you fired, it spent the whole cassette in a matter of seconds. Victor Davion dismisses a Centurion's AC-10 during a training mission only to realize too late that it was Yen Lo Wang, with the AC-20 that pretty much sanded his front armor to nothingness.

In game this could mean a few things. One, much flashier effects (almost always a good thing). Two, the more consistent chance of your autocannon NOT doing all the damage it potentially could. I aways disliked the fact that the AC-20 fired so slowly in the more modern games. The last Mechwarrior to have a rapid fire Autocannon was Mechwarrior 2, in which you still only had single rounds that ran out very quickly. It's my personal opinion that this is one of the first things that needs changing.

While I personally agree with you, I'd like to warn you of the incoming TT crusaders who are immune to arguments and will dismiss everything you have just said as "meaningless fluff", "stupid", and/or "a threat to balancing".

3...2...1... *hides*

[Owl Cutter]

My personal preference is for a relatively soft, deep "whump" and flash for two reasons. I just find loud and high-pitched noises irritating. As for the other, I should first let any gun nuts know that I am aware that "reality is unrealistic" and remind you that we're talking about Battletech.

With that out of the way, muted flash and bang suggests better internal ballistic efficiency due to the barrel being long enough and the payload heavy enough to harness all of the propellant's power. I like to imagine a high-low system to give those benefits for a short barrel and attenuate recoil at the same time. While we're on that line of reasoning, I'd prefer to see sabots discarding to suggest optimisation toward better piston area in proportion to the projectile's sectional density after leaving the barrel, and no brass ejection to suggest maturation of caseless design and technology; if the high-pressure vessel is part of the sabot and/or projectile, maybe it could trap enough of the waste heat to fill the main role of cases for big guns and help explain why they heat up the 'mech much less than rocket weapons. I am also aware that there are canonical "caseless" options, but that conflict is easily resolved by calling the sabot and high-pressure vessel assembly a forward self-ejecting case. Now if only the projectiles could be groove-stabilised guided shells capable of IDF too, and the rounds stacked Metal Storm-style, it would actually look futuristic and fantastic to me...

[A6PackofToucans]

The only thing that could be cooler than Flying Debris's artwork there would be to put two ports at the front of the AC cannon venting gasses at a 45 degree angle on either side on top of the cannon to help keep the canon more stable, sort of like a giant mech sized muzzle brake.

I always liked the flames and sound from the rotary cannons, like the Goalkeeper here for example:



But for Mechwarrior AC's that are firing a single shot, the flames, and sound, plus the sound of the large diameter shell going downrage, I think it should sound like this 280 mm cannon firing a single nuclear artillery shell. Big short flash, low boom, and a whoosh from the shell as it goes.

[RedDragon]

A6PackofToucans, on 19 May 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

The only thing that could be cooler than Flying Debris's artwork there would be to put two ports at the front of the AC cannon venting gasses at a 45 degree angle on either side on top of the cannon to help keep the canon more stable, sort of like a giant mech sized muzzle brake.

Actually, there's such a depiction of a Hunchback's AC in the Mechcommander intro (at about 1:42):

Looks pretty sweet

[A6PackofToucans]

Thanks RedDragon, yea it's very brief in the Mechcommander video but I guess the artist had the same idea of venting gasses from the AC firing to make a more stable firing platform and to prevent muzzle climb. Cool!