42 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

+1

[Insidious Johnson]

I kinda like ECM in MWO. It is closer to as intended by the genre than previous games. None of them hit that mark, but then again only TT needed to be perfect for TT. So what are we really seeing? There are only 4 variants in the game. Getting all of them and running them exclusively will just get you basic efficencies in only those 4 variants. No elites or extra modules. Look at how many cataphracts waved in after last patch. I imagine future mechs and features will see so much use on their first few weeks of existance that they will all be decried as OP. Just wait on the flea and see! Next up will be stalker. I can garauntee there will be some weapon systems tweeking so that a stalker isn't instantly worthless upon deployment. In fact, there will probably be so many that we'll see another round of "NERF LRMS".

Edited by Insidious Johnson, 11 December 2012 - 11:31 PM.

[Elkarlo]

Void Angel, on 11 December 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Actually, they're still wrong based on the tabletop rules. We're actually playing a double-blind game (from the Battletech Tactical Handbook [8630]) which does indeed specify that ECM systems make sensor spotting of enemy units more difficult. As MWO combines visual and sensor spotting, this means that ECM is working properly, even as a pure adaptation of the tabletop game.

Short translation of the TT no LoS spotting rules:

Yes effective Spotting Range is decrease to 180m and 360m (BaP).due GECM by Sensors

So a Streakcat would be able to go at 180m Lockon and push the ECM carrier out of the world, as he would be able to lock on it. And the BaP would make lot of sense too.

[HC Harlequin]

http://mwomercs.com/...65-what-is-ecm/

[YakkSlapper]

well there goes MY forum cherry,,,,,


So, O.P. as to the rules line ->" It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

As someone who has and still is a tournament judge for many different game companies over the years, (just so ppl know im close to 50yo so been at judging a while)

I would rule that to mean,
it has no 'bad' effects on units friendly to ECM fiering capaballitys/rules,

or,

this rule of fiering though ECM bubble does not detract from friendly units fiering from inside or through siad ECM 'bubble'

i can understand how the wording of original rules looks like one thing your getting at, but like i said, from a 'judges' point of view, it means "does not hinder friendly actions"


IF your meaning "you" shouldnt take a panalty for shooting someone NOT ecm equiped, sry it does affect,target is inside/throught LOS of friendly ECM field

**"team leader this is charly 2, i cant target the targeting jamming generator,
**TEAM LEADER to charly 2 can u target the genner guarding it?,,
(mutters under breath) how the fk he get to be in command? wanting me to target someting thats protected INSIDE of a targeting jamming field? wtf he been smoking?

That last part isnt an insult, just a bit of humour, maby crit hits will run with it, lol

Edited by YakkSlapper, 11 January 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[Skyfaller]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Yes, another ECM post, but with data. I wanted to spend a couple days evaluating and researching ECM in MWO, and the Battletech rules, instead of just knee-jerking a reaction.

Per the Classic BattleTech Master Rules, page 136:
http://www.lski.org/...20-%20Clear.pdf

"An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of
sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

Effects:

-Active Probes: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed.
-Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of the Artemis IV FCS. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but the Missile Hits Table bonus is lost.
-Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Missile Hits Table bonus for that system if they are affected by ECM. The Narc launcher itself is
not affected by ECM.
-C3 Computer: ECM has the effect of “cutting off” any C3 equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network by being inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network “below” it is effectively shut off (all units subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 135). Only those C3 units that can draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass into or through the ECM radius can access the network."

Based on the above, ECM should only cloak the mech it is mounted on, not all friendly units within the 180m radius. Narc should still allow targeting, but the missle bonus is lost, and transmitting targeting data should still work if line of sight with the "master unit" - which could be whoever grabs the commander function in a drop.

This would still allow for scouts to be stealthy and get targeting info for their team, or for heavier mechs, allow for the ablity to hide location of part of their force if those mechs have ECM equipped. LRMs and Dtreaks would be less effective/not effective against those units, but still would be effective against non-ECM equipped mechs.

Yep. According to those rules the ECM should not prevent lock on targets nor should it make narc completely useless..it just loses the hit bonus it gives.

But then again, even with the book tossed at their noses the devs dont give a F. and continue to give fantasy advantages to mechs that already abuse and exploit yet another coding failure to gain near immunity: netcode. 90kph+ and ECM = invulnerable.

[Rhent]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Yes, another ECM post, but with data. I wanted to spend a couple days evaluating and researching ECM in MWO, and the Battletech rules, instead of just knee-jerking a reaction.

Per the Classic BattleTech Master Rules, page 136:
http://www.lski.org/...20-%20Clear.pdf

"An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of
sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

Effects:

-Active Probes: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed.
-Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of the Artemis IV FCS. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but the Missile Hits Table bonus is lost.
-Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Missile Hits Table bonus for that system if they are affected by ECM. The Narc launcher itself is
not affected by ECM.
-C3 Computer: ECM has the effect of “cutting off” any C3 equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network by being inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network “below” it is effectively shut off (all units subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 135). Only those C3 units that can draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass into or through the ECM radius can access the network."

Based on the above, ECM should only cloak the mech it is mounted on, not all friendly units within the 180m radius. Narc should still allow targeting, but the missle bonus is lost, and transmitting targeting data should still work if line of sight with the "master unit" - which could be whoever grabs the commander function in a drop.

This would still allow for scouts to be stealthy and get targeting info for their team, or for heavier mechs, allow for the ablity to hide location of part of their force if those mechs have ECM equipped. LRMs and Dtreaks would be less effective/not effective against those units, but still would be effective against non-ECM equipped mechs.

Not happening, whacky Paul got a bug up his arse for ECM and its staying that way. It doesn't matter how much it drives people away, whacky Paul is getting his way like a 3 year old refusing to wean himself.

[Yokaiko]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Yes, another ECM post, but with data. I wanted to spend a couple days evaluating and researching ECM in MWO, and the Battletech rules, instead of just knee-jerking a reaction.

Per the Classic BattleTech Master Rules, page 136:
http://www.lski.org/...20-%20Clear.pdf

"An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of
sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

Effects:

-Active Probes: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed.
-Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of the Artemis IV FCS. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but the Missile Hits Table bonus is lost.
-Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Missile Hits Table bonus for that system if they are affected by ECM. The Narc launcher itself is
not affected by ECM.
-C3 Computer: ECM has the effect of “cutting off” any C3 equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network by being inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network “below” it is effectively shut off (all units subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 135). Only those C3 units that can draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass into or through the ECM radius can access the network."

Based on the above, ECM should only cloak the mech it is mounted on, not all friendly units within the 180m radius. Narc should still allow targeting, but the missle bonus is lost, and transmitting targeting data should still work if line of sight with the "master unit" - which could be whoever grabs the commander function in a drop.

This would still allow for scouts to be stealthy and get targeting info for their team, or for heavier mechs, allow for the ablity to hide location of part of their force if those mechs have ECM equipped. LRMs and Dtreaks would be less effective/not effective against those units, but still would be effective against non-ECM equipped mechs.

Yeah so you missed the part where ECM isn;t supposed to stop locks for streaks or halt direct LRM?

[Joseph Mallan]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Yes, another ECM post, but with data. I wanted to spend a couple days evaluating and researching ECM in MWO, and the Battletech rules, instead of just knee-jerking a reaction.

Per the Classic BattleTech Master Rules, page 136:
http://www.lski.org/...20-%20Clear.pdf

"An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of
sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

To be honest Rule Lawyers have been trying this one for years. The rule quoted means that Friendly Mechs targeting is not affected by friendly ECM. They can shoot into and out of the bubble with no negative effects.

[Kaspirikay]

Hey guys, why not make it such that ecm doesnt affect the carrier and ecm equipped mechs?

[Tennex]

it doesn't even cloak the unit. it allows it to be immune to missiles..

Rhent, on 12 January 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

Not happening, whacky Paul got a bug up his arse for ECM and its staying that way. It doesn't matter how much it drives people away, whacky Paul is getting his way like a 3 year old refusing to wean himself.

does he not play 8vs8 where a disproportionate number of mechs are ECM equipt? or i should say, nobody plays anymore because of D-DCs and 3Ls or do we need a new design director that will see that.I would suggest a new designer the do have the mooney now from founders packs and other areas of revenue

Edited by Tennex, 12 January 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[TehCable]

Please vote in the poll on this topic in Suggestions:

http://mwomercs.com/...-communication/

[LucidFir]

ECM is ridiculous. I have LOS and TAG on an Atlas which is in the open 600m away - and I cannot fire on it, AT ALL, because of the ECM raven hiding somewhere behind me.

This is neither how it is supposed to work, nor how it SHOULD work given alteration of rules to fit online play...

[Sigismund]

Nowhere in the rules does ECM affect traditional targeting and LOS information gathering. It doesn't stop you from knowing your opponents armour and armaments from LOS nor does it stop missile lock ons. The ONLY purpose for the ECM is the jamming of advanced sensors such as BAP, Artemis IV, Narc and C3 (which more or less comes standard in all the video games making it powerful to begin with.) It even specifically says it doesn't affect TAG which is the only useful counter outside of other ECM's in the game and it counters that as well.

[Lokust Davion]

PGI already knows this but they still choose not to change ECM mechanics as stated in the dev's QnA. I still wonder "why" they choose not to follow TT rules regarding ECM though..

[ChrisOrange]

u lore guys got THIS game and you got tactics what more do u want

Edited by ChrisOrange, 10 February 2013 - 09:53 PM.

[Khobai]

MWO isnt tabletop. Most of the major problems with MWO are a direct result of PGI trying to make it too much like tabletop instead of letting it be its own game.

[Eddrick]

Bringing a sited referance was a great idea. But, seeing all the picking at it, was getting annoying.

TT rules are the baseline and need to be chaged as needed to fit the live action environment. Also, this is PGIs game. We are just customers. The Founders had more say during Closed Beta. Not, sure how it should work as this point for Founders. Since, they are almost like Stock Holders.

[Dmitri Valenov]

Ugh! ECM again....

You want to know how to beat an ECM team when you don't use any? Watch this video.



That's right, the A.C.E.S. went in with only 475 tons of mechs and no ECM, and won. Nuff said.

[Alvor]

To summarize TAG should always work & Streaks/Regular LRMs should always work if using Canon BT/MW.

Number of (regular) missiles hit per salvo in current MWO is OP. On average only about 50%-60% should be hitting i.e. LRM20 average 12 missiles hit per salvo.

All this information was taken from http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page which is one of the best resources for Battletech information.

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Guardian ECM Suite is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.[2]

http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite

Angel ECM Suite is an experimental version of the Guardian ECM Suite operating on a broader spectrum and greatly advances ECM technology on the battlefield.
Game Rules
The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV,Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area.

http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear

Target Acquisition Gear (TAG) is an advanced targeting device for use by artillery spotters. The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles. TAG is compatible with systems such as Arrow IV Homing Missiles or LRM munitions.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM

Streak Missile Launcher Unlike a standard SRM whose shotgun effect may result in some misses and some hits, Streak guidance gives the lighter launchers the effective average firepower of the heavier and more wasteful SRM systems, but with considerably less variation in damage effects. The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon, their specialized ammunition is much more expensive, and some users are willing to accept partial hits rather than not be able to fire on demand.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM

Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.[1]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

Number of Missiles Hit Table
Die Roll (2D6) Number of Missiles Fired
2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
2 1 1 1 1 2 3 3 4 5 6
3 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 4 5 6
4 1 1 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 9
5 1 2 2 3 3 5 6 8 9 12
6 1 2 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
7 1 2 3 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
8 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
9 2 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 12 16
10 2 3 3 4 5 7 8 10 12 16
[u]11[/u] 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
[u]12[/u] 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20

Edited by Alvor, 18 February 2013 - 07:47 PM.