70 replies to this topic

[Elandyll]

TLDR people: PGI should make three modes, including a competitive 8v8, a Free for all, and a Pug only mode

With all this Ecm talk, a glaring issue is being left on the wayside so far since the last patch.

The thing is, even if creating the 8v8 only mode has helped, it has by no mean solved the problem of Pugs being steamrolled by Pre-mades focusing fire like there's no tomorrow. Granted it has helped -a little-, I've seen some signs of improvements (steamrolled 8-0 or 8-1 7 times out of 10 instead of 9 times out of 10 I'd say. The roster of founder emblems is always a nice indicator at the end of a match for pre-mades, even if not 100% confirmation).

For the life of me, I cannot imagine why PGI cannot implement 3 simple modes to the game:

- Pug only (cannot join as Pre-made. And yes I am aware that by timing it right it might still be possible to bypass, but it'd still be a huge improvement anyway)
- "Any Way You Like It". Allows you to join as lone wolf, or pre mades of 2 up to 7 players
- 8v8 competitive only, perhaps with a ladder if they want.

Heck, if needed, provide a (small) financial incentive bonus to make up for the slightly increased queue time of the AWYLI mode worth it.

The fact is that, right now, a pre-made of 3 to 4 (I've seen more, with 2x pre-mades joining forces in the same match) still steamroll PUGs, as it is more efficient c-bill wise, and probably more fun for jocks who want to feel better about their skills.

Pre-mades (and obviously PGI) need to realize that not all PUGs choose to to drop solo (even if ultimately there shouldn't be anything wrong with that). In my case, with two very young children to keep an eye on at night, I can merely play every other day for 1 to 2h and need to not only keep the volume down, but also need an ear out so I cannot use voice chat at the moment. I am pretty sure that people suffering from various forms of deafness and/ or mute or having various other problems (including but not limited to chronic inability to express yourself in public) are also part of the "can't use voice chat" group.

I also want to repeat that with a Pug only drop, if people simply -choose- to not use voice chat/ be in a pre-made group, it should also be their choice, and do not ultimately prevent them from following a leader that puts markers down and gives instructions over text chat. But at least in this case (pug only), we'd know that most likely (again, not 100% due to coordinated drops) the fight wouldn't be completely lopsided vs a team that at the "speed of sound" can select a target and focus fire it, or adapt to positions/ fight evolution in an instant over voice chat (that isn't even provided "in game". Once TS3 goes live, that 'll be yet another problem, but everything should be adressed in its own time).

[Redshift2k5]

Nope

What you need is skill-based matchmaking to put you against a reasonably skilled enemy team, regardless of your current skill level.

The rookies get sorted with the rookies, the pros with the pros, etc

[Taryys]

What Redshift said.
Skill based match making will fix just about everything.

See my thread for even more fixes:


How To Reduce The Grind And Create A Great New User Experience

[Dukov Nook]

[REDACTED]

Honestly, the answer to getting beaten often in a mechwarrior match has nothing at all to do with game mechanics, and everything to do with the gamers desire to actually put a little effort into a game.

Farmville is still online. You have options.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 06 December 2012 - 09:10 PM.
edited per CoC

[Kunae]

None of this matters, for the coming core of the game.(CW for those who haven't been paying attention.)

The only thing the MM is for is random pug dropping. Nothing more.

[Joseph Mallan]

After we give them that they will want a Trial only mode and a only I win mode too!

[Stoicblitzer]

Losing in PUGs isn't based on individual skill. I sometimes pug because I get sick of listening to people talk in group games. I don't need 5 status reports every time someone loses an arm. So I PUG for some peace and quiet. It would help if a 4 man would announce themselves and their vague plan. Otherwise, ya definitely lose way more than I win while pugging. Tradeoffs!

[Krivvan]

The issue isn't large premades anymore, it's the random nature of the matching. You can have a team of 8 completely terrible and/or new players against a team of 8 veterans. If you are one of the former, then you'll notice more losses than others. Personally, I generally only lose 1 game out of 4 when pugging completely solo.

Back when I tracked what winnings and premade frequency were like, I put up screenshots and videos of every game I played in a row. Out of 19 games in a row I won 12 of them. The other time, out of 10 games I won 8 of them. All as a lone pugger. My w/l loss ratio definitely went down yes, but it was nothing like 9 losses out of 10.

Edited by Krivvan, 06 December 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

Krivvan, on 06 December 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

The issue isn't large premades anymore, it's the random nature of the matching. You can have a team of 8 completely terrible and/or new players against a team of 8 veterans. If you are one of the former, then you'll notice more losses than others. Personally, I generally only lose 1 game out of 4 when pugging completely solo.

Back when I tracked what winnings and premade frequency were like, I put up screenshots and videos of every game I played in a row. Out of 19 games in a row I won 14 of them. All as a lone pugger. My w/l loss ratio definitely went down yes, but it was nothing like 9 losses out of 10.

Hmm it's the other way around for me. Guess I need to l2p.

[Kunae]

Krivvan, on 06 December 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

The issue isn't large premades anymore, it's the random nature of the matching. You can have a team of 8 completely terrible and/or new players against a team of 8 veterans. If you are one of the former, then you'll notice more losses than others. Personally, I generally only lose 1 game out of 4 when pugging completely solo.

Contrary to what many of the "bads" have been complaining about, that has always been the case.

First premades were the excuse, then partial premades, then "golds", then LRMs, then gauss, and now ECM. Once they have a "skill-based" MM system in place they'll find something else to QQ about.

[WhiteRabbit]

skill based matchmaking.... anyone seeing troubles with implementing this with the current group system? (though you might use the groups' average value)

[Krivvan]

WhiteRabbit, on 06 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

skill based matchmaking.... anyone seeing troubles with implementing this with the current group system? (though you might use the groups' average value)

Have a separate stat for how well you do in group games. This is exactly how many other games do it.

[WhiteRabbit]

Krivvan, on 06 December 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

Have a separate stat for how well you do in group games. This is exactly how many other games do it.

so if we keep premades and pugs together we would match lone-wolfs through their solo-stat and groups via their group-stats?

Edit: to clarify:

some people like to keep pugs and premades droping together (or against each other) --> i think implementing anything skill-based (i.e. some points you get for damage, kills, whatever) is problematic under these conditions

Edited by WhiteRabbit, 06 December 2012 - 11:59 AM.

[Elandyll]

Even if skill based matchmaking would indeed be nice, it has nothing to do with the issue of being dropped in a pug vs pre-organized people that are on voice chat.

Completely separate issue. It's not about a skill problem here (for which, again, a good matchmaking would be nice to have) it's about the coordination of one team vs another. The solution is simple, there is no reason not to adopt it.

I expected Pre-made jocks to be against it, as it would remove the "fodder" they like to be matched again from their matches.

[Taryys]

Please sign here:

How To Reduce The Grind And Create A Great New User Experience

[Dukov Nook]

Elandyll, on 06 December 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Even if skill based matchmaking would indeed be nice, it has nothing to do with the issue of being dropped in a pug vs pre-organized people that are on voice chat.

Completely separate issue. It's not about a skill problem here (for which, again, a good matchmaking would be nice to have) it's about the coordination of one team vs another. The solution is simple, there is no reason not to adopt it.

I expected Pre-made jocks to be against it, as it would remove the "fodder" they like to be matched again from their matches.

you have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about.

[Heavenly]

+1 This definately needs to be done. I'm already sick of "having" to fill up to 8 man just to play with my friends if we only have 6 or so on at any given moment.

[Sikosis]

Elandyll, on 06 December 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Even if skill based matchmaking would indeed be nice, it has nothing to do with the issue of being dropped in a pug vs pre-organized people that are on voice chat.

Completely separate issue. It's not about a skill problem here (for which, again, a good matchmaking would be nice to have) it's about the coordination of one team vs another. The solution is simple, there is no reason not to adopt it.

I expected Pre-made jocks to be against it, as it would remove the "fodder" they like to be matched again from their matches.

The last statement I find problematic, as I consider myself a pilot first, simply because I'm capable of wrapping my head around the idea that this game is designed to be played as a TEAM game and find myself able to download, install and log into a voip client doesn't make me a "pre-made jock" . . . contrary to what you might believe, I find no joy in finding that I'm matched against "fodder" . . . in fact I find it rather annoying that I have to spend my time running around a bunch of unorganized incapable bunch of dolts trying to kill them before they get lucky.

The bottom line is again, PGI has to decide to answer the glaring question that they seem to love avoiding. Is this game going to be fragmented to all hell to accommodate a relatively small segment of the over-all community. Those who find themselves incapable of functioning in a team.

I've experienced what a couple others have said before, I have a pilot in the company that I run with that will not shut up. Everything is I I I ME ME ME I I I ME ME ME every 30 seconds of time passed on voip. It gets old, it gets annoying, but when it comes down to it, its how I deal with it that makes or breaks my game experience. I enjoy dropping solo as a pug sometimes, I enjoy dropping in 4 mans and rolling the dice, I enjoy driving in 8 man randoms and presets. . . its a part of the variety and spice of the game. Do what you wish, but don't do it at my expense or while pointing a disdaining finger at me with some venomous negativity dripping off your lips, I have enough to deal with to not wanna have to consider your psycho drivel in the process.

As for PGI, well - as I said in another post, they can be villains or kings - they have the ability to put the final word down and make the game the way we (yes, we - us, them, everyone that reaches a majority) want. All they have to do is listen, make a move and stick to it. For the life of me why they decided to say clearly that MW:O is a Mech Simulator Team based environment then failed to produce a VOIP option that is incorporated into the very fabric of the game simply baffles. The # 1 hot listed item on my dev board would be getting C3 integrated into the game so that when people launched a number based bubble would open voip for the team assigned to that matching number and a default push to talk would be available, no action on the part of the pilot required . . . just there, for the using. If you didn't want to partake in that environment then make it adjustable / enable - disabled in the options. . . would end a lot of the issues with "disorganized" units

[Sevaradan]

pug only will result in tie games with 0 kills as the pugs run around in circles, shoot snow, get lost etc, possibly in wins if one team has more suicides than the other...

[Elandyll]

Sikosis, on 06 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

The last statement I find problematic, as I consider myself a pilot first, simply because I'm capable of wrapping my head around the idea that this game is designed to be played as a TEAM game and find myself able to download, install and log into a voip client doesn't make me a "pre-made jock" . . . contrary to what you might believe, I find no joy in finding that I'm matched against "fodder" . . . in fact I find it rather annoying that I have to spend my time running around a bunch of unorganized incapable bunch of dolts trying to kill them before they get lucky.

The bottom line is again, PGI has to decide to answer the glaring question that they seem to love avoiding. Is this game going to be fragmented to all hell to accommodate a relatively small segment of the over-all community. Those who find themselves incapable of functioning in a team.

I've experienced what a couple others have said before, I have a pilot in the company that I run with that will not shut up. Everything is I I I ME ME ME I I I ME ME ME every 30 seconds of time passed on voip. It gets old, it gets annoying, but when it comes down to it, its how I deal with it that makes or breaks my game experience. I enjoy dropping solo as a pug sometimes, I enjoy dropping in 4 mans and rolling the dice, I enjoy driving in 8 man randoms and presets. . . its a part of the variety and spice of the game. Do what you wish, but don't do it at my expense or while pointing a disdaining finger at me with some venomous negativity dripping off your lips, I have enough to deal with to not wanna have to consider your psycho drivel in the process.

As for PGI, well - as I said in another post, they can be villains or kings - they have the ability to put the final word down and make the game the way we (yes, we - us, them, everyone that reaches a majority) want. All they have to do is listen, make a move and stick to it. For the life of me why they decided to say clearly that MW:O is a Mech Simulator Team based environment then failed to produce a VOIP option that is incorporated into the very fabric of the game simply baffles. The # 1 hot listed item on my dev board would be getting C3 integrated into the game so that when people launched a number based bubble would open voip for the team assigned to that matching number and a default push to talk would be available, no action on the part of the pilot required . . . just there, for the using. If you didn't want to partake in that environment then make it adjustable / enable - disabled in the options. . . would end a lot of the issues with "disorganized" units

Just to be clear on what I meant, I do not mean to say that all pre-mades are "jocks". To me, the so called "jocks" are a mere sub-category. I dare believe that the majority of pre-made players are just a bunch of friends who want to have fun together, and would rather have a decent competition (hence the AWYLI mode, that allows for all sizes of pre-mades to compete with a cash incentive, or the ladder based competitive 8v8). They can also be a group of players who do not know each other but want Organized team play, as opposed to the Random team play that PUGs create (when there is even team play at all in a Pug, which is rather ... random). The jocks I refer to are the specific pre-mades who would rather engage PUGs than other pre-mades because 90% of the time it's easy pickings.

Edited by Elandyll, 06 December 2012 - 12:46 PM.