157 replies to this topic

[nemesis271989]

Topic says everything, what do you think?
Why PPC boats and sniper fest going on?
Why is 6 x PPC is allowed ?
Why is it so effective especially at big maps? ( I know it meant to be a sniper weapon but not boating weapon?!)
Ideas to fix it?

My suggestion is recharge time on PPC and ERPPC must be doubled.
LRM fix? Now as I see no one cares if LRM is on the field?!
Ideas and possible solutions?

[Teralitha]

Remove double heat sinks problem solved..

[redreaper]

Solution to high heat alpha builds ? Reduce the heat cap before shut down and increase heat dissipation.maybe also incur damage for a overheat shut down rather then just for overriding.

Edited by redreaper, 29 April 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[Ralgas]

LRM HSR and redesign is coming

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2281857

show some patience?

[redreaper]

doesn't fix the stalker with 6x ppc and 60 alpha damage enough to kill some mechs in one hit and maim others.

[Teralitha]

redreaper, on 29 April 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Solution to high heat alpha builds ? Reduce the heat cap before shut down and increase heat dissipation.maybe also incur damage for a overheat shut down rather then just for overriding.

Like I said.... Remove double heat sinks problem solved. It reduces the heat cap... and increases dissipation. Has everyone forgotten how single heat sinks work?

Edited by Teralitha, 29 April 2013 - 04:34 AM.

[Kaldor]

redreaper, on 29 April 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Solution to high heat alpha builds ? Reduce the heat cap before shut down and increase heat dissipation.maybe also incur damage for a overheat shut down rather then just for overriding.

Yes and Yes....
Please?

Ralgas, on 29 April 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

LRM HSR and redesign is coming

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2281857

show some patience?

LRM HSR will not help versus the high alpha builds that the current game has devolved to...

[Boogie Man]

They should make double heat sinks only increase heat cap by 1.0 per heat sink (same as single heat sinks) and possibly a slight heat increase on PPC and ERPPC. With lower heat cap and slight increase to heat on ppc's I would like to see a 4 ppc alpha = automatic shutdown and 6 ppc alpha = high chance of core breach.

[MechWarrior849305]

Not a new Idea:
1) SHS: increase heat cap by 100%, slow heat diss speed.
2) DHS: no increase in heat cap, +100% increase of heat diss speed (or +40% as for now)

Also, not a new Idea, yet my thoughts with it:
High accuracy pinpoint should be totally removed. Say, we have circle (or cross) reticle, within it's range every weapon hit. When you move, reticle size increases, when you jump - even greatly increases. Say, like CoD, CS like games - you hit within aiming range, but without knowing direct hit location before you pull the trigger. Can't explain any better. Of course, reticle size should be small enough, to hit something at all.

Edited by DuoAngel, 29 April 2013 - 04:59 AM.

[Vapor Trail]

Actually part of the problem is there is a mistake in the shutdown/startup thresholds causing shutdown to be much less punishing than it was in TT.

Right now, shutdown threshold is:
(# heat sinks) + 30 heat = Shutdown Threshold, Single Heat Sinks

((# of heat sinks(in engine))* 2.0) + ((# heat sinks (outside engine)) * 1.4) +30 heat = Shutdown Threshold, Double Heat Sinks

This gives us a 6 PPC Stalker with approximately 20 DHS, having a Shutdown Threshold of approximately 64. Meaning a Stalker can see a maximum heat loading of approximately 111.9. (firing a full alpha while carrying 63.9 heat).This Stalker will have finished starting up approximately when the heat scale hits 54 (about 84.5% heat capacity).

In TT, the same mech with the same heat loading (pretty much impossible to get it there, BTW) would not begin start up until it reached 26 heat (approximately 40.6% heat).

The difference, right now, is about twelve seconds.


The problem is that when the shutdown threshold is figured, the "heat capacity" of the cooling action of the heat sinks has to be taken into account. Shutdown happens at the end of a round. Then the mech cools while shutdown and can be started back up at the end of the next round if the heat is 26 or below.

Shutdowns in MWO are missing that cooling period. Startup begins when the mech passes the startup threshold... which is currently set too high.

(insert Jimmy McMillian "Is too damn high" meme photo)

The single heat sink startup threshold should not be "(#heat sinks) + 26" which it seems it is now... It should be a hard 26 heat.

Imagine, if PPC Stalkers (or anything else) were faced with a rough minimum of twelve seconds of shutdown every time they shut down, instead of three or four seconds shutdown. Imagine if a PPC stalker that blew it's heat into the stratosphere (111.9) had to wait a minimum of 25.6 seconds before starting back up.

Think that might put a bit of a damper on high heat builds?

[El Bandito]

DHS raising heat cap is the STUPIDEST IDEA ever. Along with 2x Basics raising the heat cap AGAIN for +20%.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 April 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Butane9000]

How to fix PPC boating? Double the heat they produce when you mount multiple PPCs in the same spots. Only a few builds could run 4+ PPCs anymore. You fix that by increase heat generation by 25% if you fire more then 1 or 2 PPCs at a time. That or increase the time it takes for heat to decay.

There's options out there.

[Joseph Mallan]

Teralitha, on 28 April 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

Remove double heat sinks problem solved..

So take away any chance we have v the Clans?

[Kaldor]

Butane9000, on 29 April 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

How to fix PPC boating? Double the heat they produce when you mount multiple PPCs in the same spots. Only a few builds could run 4+ PPCs anymore. You fix that by increase heat generation by 25% if you fire more then 1 or 2 PPCs at a time. That or increase the time it takes for heat to decay.

There's options out there.

The issue with that is that the effects could be far more reaching than just PPCs as it could include lasers as well. Hunchback 4P would be an example of a "boat" that could get gutted by a change like this. Changing the heat cap mechanic is just a number that needs to be changed with minimal to no coding.

[Scipio Nostra]

I think it is neither the heat system nor the weapons (ppc for example) that needs fixing. It is the weapon slot mechanics that needs an overhaul.
6 PPC Stalkers are as ******** as 6 LL Stalkers, 4 PPC Cataphracts or 6 SRM6 Catapults.

And well, when we discussed Mech configuration in the mechlab, in closed beta and even before, I said we are going to have stupid boat-builds. Almost everyone was like: "nooo, don't limit mech configuration, it will destroy creativity and also diversity on the battlefield" So, here you go, welcome to the world of unlimited mech builds....

[Adrienne Vorton]

Vapor Trail, on 29 April 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

Actually part of the problem is there is a mistake in the shutdown/startup thresholds causing shutdown to be much less punishing than it was in TT.

Right now, shutdown threshold is:
(# heat sinks) + 30 heat = Shutdown Threshold, Single Heat Sinks

((# of heat sinks(in engine))* 2.0) + ((# heat sinks (outside engine)) * 1.4) +30 heat = Shutdown Threshold, Double Heat Sinks

This gives us a 6 PPC Stalker with approximately 20 DHS, having a Shutdown Threshold of approximately 64. Meaning a Stalker can see a maximum heat loading of approximately 111.9. (firing a full alpha while carrying 63.9 heat).This Stalker will have finished starting up approximately when the heat scale hits 54 (about 84.5% heat capacity).

In TT, the same mech with the same heat loading (pretty much impossible to get it there, BTW) would not begin start up until it reached 26 heat (approximately 40.6% heat).

The difference, right now, is about twelve seconds.


The problem is that when the shutdown threshold is figured, the "heat capacity" of the cooling action of the heat sinks has to be taken into account. Shutdown happens at the end of a round. Then the mech cools while shutdown and can be started back up at the end of the next round if the heat is 26 or below.

Shutdowns in MWO are missing that cooling period. Startup begins when the mech passes the startup threshold... which is currently set too high.

(insert Jimmy McMillian "Is too damn high" meme photo)

The single heat sink startup threshold should not be "(#heat sinks) + 26" which it seems it is now... It should be a hard 26 heat.

Imagine, if PPC Stalkers (or anything else) were faced with a rough minimum of twelve seconds of shutdown every time they shut down, instead of three or four seconds shutdown. Imagine if a PPC stalker that blew it's heat into the stratosphere (111.9) had to wait a minimum of 25.6 seconds before starting back up.

Think that might put a bit of a damper on high heat builds?

you forgot that a stalker, even with 40 effective HS (20 doubles) firing 6 PPC´s would be at 20 overheat already... watch the heatscale and see which consequences he normally would suffer from....



iknow some people would say " yea thats in a 10second round"... yes, but an alpha strike is an alpha strike, no matter how long the round is... its 60 heat in zero seconds, and he would disipate 40 within 10 seconds... i´d say he´d go boom... and honestly, that´s the only way i would treat such a build---

i´d go even furrther and say,an alpha strike should be "the last option" or a "shot of opportunity", not the one and only way to play the game... alpha= red button... with cooldown... a long one... +strong consequences for heat... i would love it, although the arcade blaster faction will probably hate me for that

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 29 April 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Less unused HPs on Mechs would remove the problem of this. Stalker is sticking point though. It is for all intend and purposes a boaters dream. I called it before it was released.6 lasers an 4 Missiles... Only thing it is missing is Ballistics!

I understand he logic behind adding an extra hard point or two to some configs, But did an Awesome need 4 more? Or a Pult-A1 need 4 more Missiles? Reduce the over abundant HPs and for the most part Boating is gone.

[Rhent]

You keep the PPC's heat per second between firings the same, but increase the firing delay on PPC's and you fixed the problem for PPC's. You also need to increase the firing delay on the Gauss to be longer as well. AND wow, you've effectively fixed snipers. They can still snipe, however they can't unload massive amount of damage in 6 seconds.

The people pushing for hard point reductions tend to be the same people who are running mixed builds AND they want to have the best possible of weapons for their own builds over boating. The hypocrisy of the hard point change is grating. Getting tired of seeing it and people not calling those guys out on the BS they are pushing.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rhent, on 29 April 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

You keep the PPC's heat per second between firings the same, but increase the firing delay on PPC's and you fixed the problem for PPC's. You also need to increase the firing delay on the Gauss to be longer as well. AND wow, you've effectively fixed snipers. They can still snipe, however they can't unload massive amount of damage in 6 seconds.

The people pushing for hard point reductions tend to be the same people who are running mixed builds AND they want to have the best possible of weapons for their own builds over boating. The hypocrisy of the hard point change is grating. Getting tired of seeing it and people not calling those guys out on the BS they are pushing.

It's not BS. 2 PPCs are not that crazy as they stand right now. I don't even have PPCs on my Mechs. Not because the aren't effective but because I want to avoid the heat. I am a balance builder... with exception of my Jager40. So if a Stalker has 2 PPC and a Mix of other weapons, is it a bad build? The best weapons in a tactical build is the best bang for your buck. Because you don't like the suggestion doesn't mean it is a bad one. Reduced boating makes a OP group of weapons manageable. 2 SSRMs is not OP 2-3 PPCs are not OP. SIX of these weapons become to much though.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 April 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

This reminds me of CB. Focusing on either nerfing the **** out of the FOTM weapon and or neutering how any one Mech can be built are pretty much the same. They only affect certain units and or weapons and never solves the Global issue.

The answer is out there and we have read it already. It is just a matter of how the Dev wish to deal with it. Could be Global Heat capacity changes or perhaps Hard Point limitations. What has to be remembered though, is that we do not have to assure that whatever it is, works. The Dev Team does. If they achieve that and please as many as "they" deem necessary, then we/they have achieved success. Just because you didn't get what you wanted, that doesn't make the decision a wrong one.

Just ask anyone who has gone to small claims, assured victory, and lost.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 29 April 2013 - 11:32 AM.