35 replies to this topic

[Dagger6T6]

I was researching the TT ecm today... and on Sarna there is an experimental Draconis ECM suite called Angel ECM... all the benefits of regular SRM plus it jams streaks, which is basically what we have here... although it did allow streaks to fire as regular SRMs which I found odd

also no mention of actually jamming LRMs... only negating Artemis

but aside from all that ECM is really only a minor annoyance... most of the Streak cats out there just switched to regular SRMs... been seeing lots of SRM6 Cats and still the occasional Streak cat in PUG games because ECM is not that organized... in 8v8 u can count on at least 3 ECM per side on most occasions

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Phatel, on 06 December 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

I don't do it because I know how to play and ECM doesn't bother me. I'll play your game though, why don't you?

I do(still C4 2xALRM15 2xSRM6 2xMPLas) BUT only in PUGs.Bcuz if i dont bring ECM to 8-man premade AND have LRMs then I am pretty useless.So i rather bring up my 4xLLas K2 just bcuz i actually do more dmg with it...wonder why todays 8-man premades bring 3xD-DC +3x raven/cicada with ECM and 2x cataphract/K2 with ACs or Gausses...if you will see some1 in premades playing LRM support consider him as a freak.

Dagger6T6, on 06 December 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

I was researching the TT ecm today... and on Sarna there is an experimental Draconis ECM suite called Angel ECM... all the benefits of regular SRM plus it jams streaks, which is basically what we have here... although it did allow streaks to fire as regular SRMs which I found odd

also no mention of actually jamming LRMs... only negating Artemis

but aside from all that ECM is really only a minor annoyance... most of the Streak cats out there just switched to regular SRMs... been seeing lots of SRM6 Cats and still the occasional Streak cat in PUG games because ECM is not that organized... in 8v8 u can count on at least 3 ECM per side on most occasions

Exactly.in TT there is not malfunction of radar/scanners OUTSIDE 180m.Its MechWarrior games feature.And it was cosidered as balanced in previous MechWarrior tittles...

[Asmosis]

Phatel, on 06 December 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

ECM is fine. It has limited range, counters and is only available on limited mechs. People thinking that they shouldn't have to adjust playstyle is the problem. Sitting 1k meters back semi afk and pushing 1 to dominate the enemy may not be viable if the enemy has ECM AND they stay under the umbrella AND you don't have Tag AND they are not countered with ECM jamming. So ya, totally broke being lazy for kills, your ability to sit at your spawn and fire endless waves of LRM at every mech on the other side is no longer viable. Most of us are not upset.

If you consider "the entire map" to be limited range, then sure. because thats how far ECM affects things.

It should either affect things at close range or long range, not both.

Edited by Asmosis, 06 December 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[ollo]

I see 3 main problems:

• With superduper-ECM, what is the left for other equipment like the NSS?
  
• As the number of ECM-builds per team is not balanced, the unfortunate team is outright f***ed
  
• Why is there a CAT-A1 in the game? Either you configure it a SRM-boat or it is pure luck if you can even get one hit in a match or not.

[_Speirs]

ECM is fine for me.
It changed game tactics.
No more LRM and sSRM fire and forget - now you have to think and have skill to use them.
One example are ECM mechs but then you have to choice:
1) I disrupt and my sSRMs are useles
2) I counter - duel with another ECM mech or hit sSRM mechs under his umbrella BUT THEN I close umbrella for my teammates and suddenly INCOMING MISSILES in front of my eyes appears...

[Scarlett Avignon]

Grym, on 06 December 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

ECM is OP. It really is. But its OP because of streak cats. I feel that the complete jamming at close range was implemented in direct response to streak cats.

No one doubts this whatsover.

I do.

Asmosis, on 06 December 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

If you consider "the entire map" to be limited range, then sure. because thats how far ECM affects things.

The maps are larger than 200m.

[Mawai]

Tiger 6, on 06 December 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Tripping and streaks were about the only reliable way of destroying a teleporting scout. Now in 8 man drops we are getting swamped by ECM Raven's and Cicada's and can't counter them with either tactic. Bring back tripping and ECM won't be OP.

I disagree. Tripping and SSRM are the EASY way to deal with fast scout mechs, Light mechs die all the time. I've recently been using ballistic and laser catapult builds, hunchback and Jenner builds. Yes - you have to aim some distance in front of the light mech to hit even with lasers but your reticle will turn red when you are hitting. On top of that - focus fire on the legs and they usually drop pretty quickly - once they lose a leg they are usually a sitting duck.

Finally, if you stay grouped and everyone uses focused fire on the same target... lights don't last long.

On the topic of ECM ... I think it adds some interesting twists on the battlefield. The jury is still out on overall balance but it doesn't seem terrible so far. The biggest issue I think is the Atlas D-DC becoming the fit of the day and the tendency to have more of them in any given drop. I have heard that some 8 man pre-mades are dropping with 8 of them.
.

[Infernus1986]

I don't know where all the grief about LRM nerf is coming from i have ran a dc-d with 2xLRM 15 since closed beta and they are just as effective when used properly.
The problem is your tactics I don't waste LRM's for maybe hits from across the map, I wait till an enemy mech is in the open and or engaged with a friendly mech and then proceed to reign death on them.
Also with the ECM where seeing a lot more brawling so to speak so mech's are in your face quickly now instead of keeping there distance from the possible raidbosses.

Spamming LRM's from extreme range or whenever you can lock on to that mech you cant see 800m over the hill has never been a good tactic especially if you actually want to do anything besides annoy people with missile warnings.
Support you teammates with covering fire and take some backup weapons for when you cant use LRM's and you will do fine,
Always keep in mind that LRM's meant to be a support weapon to soften targets not a one weapon missile spam death machine.

Have you seen how well they work when a teammate TAG's a mech that's ECM'ed in the open and thinks hes safe?
The ECM killed the LRM point is moot if you have competent teammates which is the games biggest problem now

Edited by Infernus1986, 07 December 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[Tolkien]

Dagger6T6, on 06 December 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

I was researching the TT ecm today... and on Sarna there is an experimental Draconis ECM suite called Angel ECM... all the benefits of regular SRM plus it jams streaks, which is basically what we have here... although it did allow streaks to fire as regular SRMs which I found odd

also no mention of actually jamming LRMs... only negating Artemis

but aside from all that ECM is really only a minor annoyance... most of the Streak cats out there just switched to regular SRMs... been seeing lots of SRM6 Cats and still the occasional Streak cat in PUG games because ECM is not that organized... in 8v8 u can count on at least 3 ECM per side on most occasions

Yeah, as a guy who plays a support catapult (LRM mech...) since the game is broken and the framerate craters too low to brawl effectively, I hate the new ECM. I played a lot of tabletop and ECM blocking LRM is new to me. It should kill my artemis IV bonus but otherwise leave the weapon system unaffected.

The current ECM is like an Angel ECM++

[KalebFenoir]

I totally agree that the ECM just needs an adjustment to make the support role more viable, while still making it a good defensive strategy for the other team.

The whole 'cut your targetting range to 25%' seems a bit overkill...unless you're at point-blank ranges. I can completely understand that, if you're within a short range or perhaps even a medium range of the ECM-bearing mech, your sensors and targetting get harder, and you need to get closer to get a good lockon or sensor sweep. But to hold LONG range weapons to the same doesn't make sense. The effect of the ECM should be gradual dependant on the distance to target. If you're half the map away from a mech in the ECM bubble or bearing the ECM, your targetting range might still be affected, but it shouldn't be down to a whopping 25%.

More likely, at long range, your active targetting would be reduced BY 25%...not TO 25%. Meaning that a weapon that can normally hit accurately at 1000 m (LRMs, some ballistics, some lasers), might have a hard time locking onto the same target at 1000 m if it's in the ECM field. Therefore, you have to get closer by 25% to achieve the same level of lock.

As much as I hate defending the streakcats on this (as they are currently my bane of existence, ECM or not), the only thing ECM should do to them is make their lock-on have a slightly slower lock. Not defeat it or reduce its range, because the SSRMs are already punching distance, and their targetting systems are strictly hard-lock only. Unlike LRMs where you have to stay locked on until target, it seems like once Streaks lock, that's it. Just hold the trigger down and face your opponent. The only thing the ECM should be able to do to this is make it a longer time to wait before hitting that trigger, because if the Streaks are already ready to fire, it's too late for ECM to help.

That might offer some frustration for Streakers, but it still allows them to hardlock and keep firing without much worry. Just a timing thing. And it still gives the other side a chance to get out of sight or pour enough firepower into that streaker to make his day bad.

One thing I can say; if they ever do impliment Hatchets on mechs in this game, I fear for all of us; hordes of hatchet-wielding, ECM equipped mechs running in and bashing the coolant out of everyone in their path, because at the current settings for ECM, no one can actually catch them.

[Dagger6T6]

KalebFenoir, on 07 December 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

As much as I hate defending the streakcats on this (as they are currently my bane of existence, ECM or not), the only thing ECM should do to them is make their lock-on have a slightly slower lock. Not defeat it or reduce its range, because the SSRMs are already punching distance, and their targetting systems are strictly hard-lock only. Unlike LRMs where you have to stay locked on until target, it seems like once Streaks lock, that's it. Just hold the trigger down and face your opponent. The only thing the ECM should be able to do to this is make it a longer time to wait before hitting that trigger, because if the Streaks are already ready to fire, it's too late for ECM to help.

That might offer some frustration for Streakers, but it still allows them to hardlock and keep firing without much worry. Just a timing thing. And it still gives the other side a chance to get out of sight or pour enough firepower into that streaker to make his day bad.

I think what needed to happen with streaks is that they needed to obtain a lock every time they were fired... to me this fits more into the intentions of tabletop rules... you had to make a roll every time to determine if your missles locked and fired

If the MWO streaks would lock, then you fire... then you need to get a new lock before you can fire again... regardless of ECM this would have stopped the continuous rain of streaks and kept people from just a constant chain fire of streaks.

and then with the introduction of ECM it would have increased this lock time... i'm not defending streak builds, but they became popular in direct relation to bad netcode and light mechs that are near impossible to hit with lag and bad fps are combined. Their tendency to also hit mostly CT even though that was supposedly reduced and along with the massive cockpit shake made them to OP. ECM was coming no matter what, but I think it was a direct slam at streaks, given even by the patch notes release where persons stated "they can't wait to ruin a streak cat's day with this new eq"

instead of ruining anyone's day why not instead introduce balance in a logical way?... instead we have a constant back and forth of overcompensation across the majority of weapon systems... there is much room for improvement with how streaks, LRMs, BAP and ECM interact and are currently implemented, so I hope they look into it and actually use TT influences when it can actually help them...

[Infernus1986]

Dagger6T6, on 07 December 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

I think what needed to happen with streaks is that they needed to obtain a lock every time they were fired... to me this fits more into the intentions of tabletop rules... you had to make a roll every time to determine if your missiles locked and fired

This is very true, according to the fluff streak missiles have the targeting systems on the warhead where LRMS are guided by the mechs computer.
It would make sense to have to re acquire lock on with the new missiles loaded into the launcher and armed since the missiles themselves are doing the targeting and not the mech relaying it to them.

[The Tickler]

http://beta.xfire.com/games/mwo

(I realize the numbers aren't 100% accurate but they still illustrate the point)

Players have been falling steeply for months. I'm glad all you hardcore mechwarriors are enjoying what you feel to be your game and the inclusion of ECM. It's all, "Haha stupid PUG players", but the PUG players are leaving. The PUG players see that things are getting very unbalanced and unlike the hardcore players are not willing to work at having fun. Without those players, this game will die. You all come off as elitists and you are alienating most of the other people who want to game with you. It's the reason why most casual gamers will not set a foot in this forum, which btw has one of the worst communities this side of Diablo 3.

Hate to break it to you, but ECM is unbalanced. I have been playing with 3 of my friends now for months and we all have a kill/death ratio of above 3.00 with thousands of games under our belts. I've run with cataphracts, hutchbacks, and awesomes - none of which rely on missiles. I don't WANT to be forced into playing a slow as hell atlas or a raven in order for my group to have a chance. I was having FUN before and the dozen or so games my friends and I have played since the patch - they are NOT fun. The complete lack of targetting info means even my laser builds don't have a chance, because I can't tell where I should focus my fire. There used to be strategy. You used to have role combat - LRMs would force people to take cover. You'd move into position and wait for your chance. Now it's just a lets gather in the middle and "brawl". And LRM, which is suppose to be a part of the game - I didn't see one single game with anyone using it. The game has been changed and gutted and like I said, while some of you are so thick that you will go along with it (the same ones you typically see with hundreds of posts on the forum), the rest of us are packing our bags. Hopefully the developers will realize the damage and fix it. I was having a lot of fun.

Edited by The Tickler, 07 December 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[Vasces Diablo]

One of my fav mechs to pilot was my Cat -C4

2 LRM 15s
2 Streak 2s
2 med las

This is not a LRM boat, streak Cat, or a cheese build of any kind. This is a well thought out, tactically flexible mech.

I could have more LRMs, but I wanted to defend against scouts/harassers
I could mount larger SRMs, but I wanted the lock on feature
I could use pulse lasers, but I don't want the heat/weight increase
I could have kept the JJ for mobility, but I wanted armor and heat dispersion

Ultimately, that's what every thing in BT/MW is about when it comes to builds/load out. Trade offs and cost of use.

ECM is 1.5 ton piece of equip with no downside or cost of use and it essentially bricks a 65 tin mech.

That is the definition of OP.

I'm all in favor of ECM, just not this version of it.

[Cerlin]

I currently have only ran one ecm mech 2 or 3 times since the patch. Otherwise Ive done my Cataphrachs or Centurions in both pub and premades and I like the effect of ECM in general. It makes the tension a lot more palpable and the matches more frantic.

Any team that wants to fight can easily find one, more builds and mechs are being used, and Im enjoying the game more. I may tweak ECm slightly but I hope it mostly keeps its current form.

I was no streak cat guy but I was an hunch - SP pilot in the beta who used the 4 missile slots for streaks with my ML builds and destroyed people (I was one of the early stackers in my matches.) It is a super powered weapon but I still get killed by them and LRMS now, but also other guns. If LRM and SSRM are Underpowered now because people can use other guns, thats a good thing. Please do slight tweaks and not big ones. Thanks

[Hayashi]

Centralising all ECM discussion on the stickied ECM feedback thread to avoid input from getting lost in the cloud and reduce duplicate posting. Please continue discussion there.