54 replies to this topic

[Cerlin]

I dont love atlas spam and as of yesterday I have ran several 8v8's and I would say if you arent going to do a tonnage BV limit then REWARD the team that comes in undermanned (7v8) and undertonage (team with heavies and mediums.) This will not fix the problem but it will give incentive to creative team builds which will at least make the pang of the loss better.

But yeah tonnage limit would be fun along with more reward for smaller teams.

[Dormax]

Redshift2k5, on 07 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

We don't need a weight limit for 8-man teams.

We need a weight balance for 8-man teams.

The difference being, you can take any combination you choose, and get matched agaist the closest-matching enemy team in the queue, instead of having a limit imposed on you. Want to drop in 8 assaults? fine, the other team will also be in 8 assaults.

The closer to get to the average tonnage, the wider variety of team compositions are possible.

It seems to me that this is the most TT approach to the MM system. Now, the plans are already laid for phase 3, so we'll see what happens. But, I remember many a tabletop game that used an overall tonnage rule and created some rather interesting mech combinations.

[nonplusultra]

Angelicon, on 07 December 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

This is 4xDC and 4xCommando -- no thanks.

Why? It workes! 8 DC are a problem but not 4DC and 4 Commando.
And u should remind that they will balance ECM.

[nonplusultra]

Redshift2k5, on 07 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

We don't need a weight limit for 8-man teams.

We need a weight balance for 8-man teams.

The difference being, you can take any combination you choose, and get matched agaist the closest-matching enemy team in the queue, instead of having a limit imposed on you. Want to drop in 8 assaults? fine, the other team will also be in 8 assaults.

The closer to get to the average tonnage, the wider variety of team compositions are possible.

This sounds better for me. Like!

[CocoaJin]

No Remorse, on 07 December 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

"Dropship Inbound"

Commander : "OK boys, get on the scales..." "Good good, so I was talking to the other commander and we agreed upon 500 tonnes"

Recruit: "And you believed him, sir!"

Commander: "Of course son, this is war!"

Recruit: "but... aren't you supposed to try to win by outnumbering, outgunning and outmaneuvering, sir?"

Commander: "Don't be silly soldier, its not THAT kind of war"

This would be great if tonnage came with logistical and resource liability, if there was a true strategic cost to committing more tonnage, if there was some concept of attrition that would have a significant cost liability, if the committment of tonnage in one match resulted in their being less resources to commit tonnage in another fight/location, etc, etc.

Fielding tonnage has to have a cost, trade-offs, consequence...or its meaningless. Its why every ship in the navy isnt a carrier or battleship(in the old days), why every armored vehicle isnt a premier main battle tank, why every fighter isnt a F22 or MiG29, etc, etc, etc. With consequence, costs, liability, resource constraints, you have no real strategy...you spam the biggest thing you have over and over again. You're not a tactician, you're a pipe dream...battlefield/strategic masturbation.

[Fooooo]

Janus Wealth, on 07 December 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

No Drop limits via Tonnage, you´ll ban 8 atlas drops - which are pretty easy to defeat via cap-win - and you allow 8 raven teams?

Thats silly. If we have to restrict something, make it like:

2 lights
2 medium
2 heavy
2 assault

No restriction on weight, please. it wont work.

Thats pretty much the only & best way to limit it if it needed to be done imo.

You could even split that into brackets like I see some corps already do for some of the comps etc......i think ??
Basically once you have your group full you can then choose the bracket you wish your group to drop in.

IS = 2x2x2x2 (CLAN = 1x1x2x1)
IS = 1x3x2x2 (CLAN = 1x2x1x1)
IS = 1x1x3x3 (CLAN = 0x1x2x2)

Obviously having lots of different ones would increase wait times a lot so a few standardized ones would need to be found.

However I think its a fairly decent idea and avoids all the problems that BV and Tonnage can bring in, bar when Clans arrive that is........ (those CLAN brackets next to the IS brackets obv are probably not balanced against the IS ones but I just put it there to show how clans could still be balanced in this type of system)

Not that I really have a problem with free range drops. Its not really having free range drops that is causing problems imo, its the balance of the game atm that is the cause. People using certain group make-ups (6DC's etc) is just the effect.

[Justin Xang Allard]

No Remorse, on 07 December 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

"Dropship Inbound"

Commander : "OK boys, get on the scales..." "Good good, so I was talking to the other commander and we agreed upon 500 tonnes"

Recruit: "And you believed him, sir!"

Commander: "Of course son, this is war!"

Recruit: "but... aren't you supposed to try to win by outnumbering, outgunning and outmaneuvering, sir?"

Commander: "Don't be silly soldier, its not THAT kind of war"

the problem is if you want to play 8 man now, its 5 dd-c atlai and 3 ecm lights. thats about it.

[Corvus Antaka]

+1

[Abivard]

I want my team to have a weight limit of 1200 tons but only drop against a team that has limit of 100 tons... and no ecm, or streaks or lrms, or gauss or srms or ac## or lasers or PPC's or armor for them, but we take whatever, then trolls will be able to play again, the game will be balanced finally!

If you need to have your opponents handicapped before the match starts, play Table top against yourself, maybe that way you might even win once in awhile ;p

[Valore]

Fix the problem, not the symptom.

I like the idea of dropping whatever a premade wants.

The problem comes when dropping 8 X something gives an absolute advantage. That is what needs to be fixed. Not the drop weight limits.

[Ashnod]

skill matters more over mechs... we were testing RHOD builds tonight and crushing ECM cheese teams and the rest

[Glythe]

The game is built on the idea that lights kill assaults, assaults kill everything but lights, mediums offer fire support/chase lights, heavies kill mediums and engage assaults with backup.

In that mind set it is fair to run into 8 assaults if you run an 8 man scout team.

Arbitrarily limiting the drop weight is just going to make it harder to get into an 8 man match.... I don't think that is what you want.

[steelblueskies]

Ashnod, on 18 December 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

skill matters more over mechs... we were testing RHOD builds tonight and crushing ECM cheese teams and the rest

really? saw you while pugging my rs quad llas machine tonight. have the end of match image to confirm. so were you only crushing in 8's or only "ecm cheese teams"? gauss+medium k2? or?
-----------------------------------------------------------

weight or class matching. still won't do anything but return the "game the system to get opponents of the same disposition we think we can beat crutch" figure out a way to double blind the mech distribution.

sure that'll be fine for the quick and dirty casual gaming, but for real competitive work? some kind of bv *player skill system.

now if you are suggesting simple class matching, or weight matching, or the like as a near term temporary stopgap, sure, fine.
no limit matching should still have it's place on the side. just beware getting a stopgap that becomes somewhat more permanent than intended initially.

[Asmosis]

It wont change the meta game.

If you set the drop limit to XXX tons, then XXX will become the optimal drop config, probably made up of commandos + atlas all with ECM.

everyone will drop at the max weight limit so long as there is a weight limit.

If ECM didnt stack there would be no problem. i.e. one counter ECM counters all ECM. You still benefit from multiple ECM's (redundancy, bigger coverage area, counter + ECM etc).

Edited by Asmosis, 18 December 2012 - 02:58 AM.

[PlzDie]

Janus Wealth, on 07 December 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

No Drop limits via Tonnage, you´ll ban 8 atlas drops - which are pretty easy to defeat via cap-win - and you allow 8 raven teams?

Thats silly. If we have to restrict something, make it like:

2 lights
2 medium
2 heavy
2 assault

No restriction on weight, please. it wont work.

I also agree with this make the limits based on chassis not on weight, the 8 man teams will then know that you can only take 2 of each chassis into a match.
It should also be easy on the MM to confirm the composition of each team, and connections to other 8 man groups should also go faster if the composition of all teams match.
If they limit on weight lets say 500 tons, you will get teams running 8 lights, or 4 Atlas D-DC's and 4 Commando 2D's or some other cheesy configuration.

Edited by Duppie1974, 18 December 2012 - 03:00 AM.