46 replies to this topic

[Thomas Hogarth]

I had an idea awhile back that might work for the Clans:

Replace C-Bills and associated mechanics with Honor Points and a new set of mechanics.

Here's how it works: Once the Clans become available, the User Interface(UI) is updated with a button in the corner of the screen. The button might be named "CLAN MODE" or similar. If you decide to play as the Clans, you push this button and you are taken to Clan Mode. Players can switch back to IS mode at any time, and have access to everything they earned in that mode. It's treated as two separate accounts, despite being linked by a button on the UI. A similar parallel can be found in Navy Field, where you can switch between harbors of different countries, but you are not able to transfer German ships to your British yard.

The first time you're in Clan Mode, you select a single name (Mark, Anthony, Jim, etc), and a Clan.

You start off with a small pile of Honor Points. Honor Points can be used to purchase new chassis, repod them to different variants, or create all-new configurations at great Honor Point expense. [1] There is a set number of Honor Points that a player cannot go under via purchase of new material. More on this later. Honor Points cannot be bought with real-world cash. Subscriptions for greater CB earnings do not apply to Clan Mode, but you can purchase a "Champion Trainer for real-world cash which increases your Honor Points earnings and the rate that the player earns Pilot Experience Points(PXP) in Clan Mode.

How do you earn Honor Points, then? Well, it would depend on there being some sort of individual 'Mech valuing system. In tabletop, the standard is Battle Value 2.0. However, for a variety of reasons, BV2.0 will not work in MWO, but a modified BV might. [2] In any case, Clan Mechwarriors are the best of the best, piloting the hottest machines the human sphere has ever seen. They're expected to perform well. Honor is therefore granted on a damage delivered to damage received ratio, and you're expected to deliver quite a bit more damage than you receive to break even that match. Honor is given for going above this ratio, and Honor is deducted for going below this ratio.

This is done by tracking the value you REMOVE from enemy 'Mechs. Remove armor, and the value goes down. Remove a limb, and the value goes down. Think of this as a running total of value damage you have done. Likewise, the damage done to your own 'Mech is tallied in a running total as well. This is all hidden - there is no scrolling numbers in gameplay for you to consider.

The good news here is that non-honor related expenses such as ammo, repairs, or travel are free for Clan pilots, while IS players still need to deal with these expenses.

Now if at any point your Honor Points go below that minimum amount mentioned earlier, you enter Solahma mode. Your 'Mechs are frozen, and you must pick an older IS design to fight in, to represent one of the 'Mechs brought over on the Exodus and stored in caches for solahma warriors. Example: A Grasshopper would be fine, but a Mauler, being new IS tech, would not. Stock variant of whatever 'Mech you choose only, no modifications allowed (although solahma units sometimes used old 'Mechs with their weapons replaced with Clan equivalents. As these units still used standard structure and SHS, this wasn't as effective as it sounds). The honor ratio is softened to a break-even of 1:1 damage taken to damage received. Do better, and you earn easy honor. Do worse, and you remain solahma. Earn your Honor back up, and your old 'Mechs are returned to you (but you don't keep the IS 'Mech).


Conversely, if your honor goes over a very high number at ANY time, you earn a random, clan-specific Bloodname. If your honor goes below this mark, you retain the Bloodname. Now you are marked as a resourceful and skilled warrior.

Here's my rationale: Playing as the Clans shouldn't be a trivial thing, and their tech shouldn't be arbitrarily neutered. I want playing Clans to be a challenge, and I want it to FEEL different than playing as IS. Also, I'd like to be able to jump back and forth. Some days I feel like slumming it up with the rest of the dirty spheroids, some days I feel like being an elite Clan warrior with a lot at stake.

I've heard a lot of people state that they do not care for Clan tech, they simply want to be a part of (insert favorite clan here). If there were some draconian feature to keep out all but the best players, this would negatively impact these players if they weren't top-tier players. The system outlined above means anyone can be a Clan player, but poor players might end up fighting in IS mechs. Omnimechs and very nice Clan tech would be limited to the best of the best, as it should be.

maybe I SHOULD post this to suggestions....

[1] Rationale for making all-new configs expensive: Fluffwise, only the best Mechwarriors had full-up custom repods. While it can be argued that normal Mechwarriors had custom repods(use of which was just barely "offscreen"), we only have evidence that the best did. Gameplay wise, this allows further use of the canon pod configurations, which would otherwise rarely be used.

[2] BV2.0 places a very high premium on speed, which makes sense in tabletop. In a MW game, speed isn't nearly as valuable to keep you from getting hit at close ranges, so BV2.0 (which makes the Timber Wolf Prime similar in cost to a Dire Wolf Prime) simply would not work well. I claim that BV2.0 can be modified for MWO simply by adjusting the speed value modifier, and can be applied in such a way that incorporates modifications to 'Mechs - the value would be capable of being modified on the fly, as it were.

[Paganach]

I figured the clans were the 'premium' of the MWO universe. The rest of the game is FTP but if you want clan tech you gotta pay. Now this is just me guessing.

[Snotling]

Keep clans and is seperate. If someone joins a pub game, he is on the clan side with other clanners. Then balance it via numbers (the often quoted 12vs10 situation) With a high enough playerbase, it should be no problem to make clan and is teams. That way we would have three matchups: 12IS vs 12IS, 10clan vs 10clan and 12is vs 10clan, wicth would make for a nice variety of games. If that is not enough, give the is side more tonnage.

I think we dont have to be afraid of the WoT situation, (were low tier tanks are literally unable to damage high tier tanks) because every weapon will do damage, which will add up).

Dont just make the clan stuff more expensive and mix the teams. It would still be very frustrating for players to fight vs better mechs in the respective game. There is little comfort in knowing that the guys that just smashed your team with plain better weapons have to pay more for their repairs afterwards.

This applies to al lot of the suggestions above. The individual match has to be balanced, not the way people get the better stuff between their matches.

Edited by Snotling, 14 May 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Págánach, on 14 May 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

I figured the clans were the 'premium' of the MWO universe. The rest of the game is FTP but if you want clan tech you gotta pay. Now this is just me guessing.

I strongly disagree with this. There shouldn't be even a hint of P2W for the Clans - the backlash would be immediate, highly vocal, and very negative.

Rather, I think Clans should be limited by skill. Poor players should not be able to use Clan tech as a crutch. And make no mistake, Clan tech at full power(which has yet to be seen in a MW game) could certainly make a bad pilot decent.

Snotling, on 14 May 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Keep clans and is seperate. If someone joins a pub game, he is on the clan side with other clanners. Then balance it via numbers (the often quoted 12vs10 situation) With a high enough playerbase, it should be no problem to make clan and is teams. That way we would have three matchups: 12IS vs 12IS, 10clan vs 10clan and 12is vs 10clan, wicth would make for a nice variety of games. If that is not enough, give the is side more tonnage.

I think we dont have to be afraid of the WoT situation, (were low tier tanks are literally unable to damage high tier tanks) because every weapon will do damage, which will add up).

Dont just make the clan stuff more expensive and mix the teams. It would still be very frustrating for players to fight vs better mechs in the respective game. There is little comfort in knowing that the guys that just smashed your team with plain better weapons have to pay more for their repairs afterwards

The major issue there is that 10 Clan mechs would be able to tear through 12 IS mechs with no worry, if Clan tech has canon values.

[Snotling]

Thomas Hogarth, on 14 May 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

The major issue there is that 10 Clan mechs would be able to tear through 12 IS mechs with no worry, if Clan tech has canon values.

As i said, give the IS a little more tonnage. (not to much) and after that: balance stuff. There is a point were:

fun and well balanced Game>Everything exactly like in TT

Edited by Snotling, 14 May 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[Gigaton]

Odanan, on 14 May 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

That would be enough.

Alone it's hardly enough. You don't balance stuff in MMOs by making them harder to grind/more expensive to use if there are no other drawbacks. But Garth did say it's "one" of the disadvantages.

Walter Soebchak, on 14 May 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

So, lore purists might not want their to be a disadvantage.

I'd like to see that lore purist. People who want lora accurate success for Clans usually seem to suggest that players should not be able to get invloved with them at all pre-Tukayyid.

[Banditman]

"Lore Purists" in any game are the bane of fun.

I'm glad they enjoyed the lore, but seriously, this is a game we're talking about and if the "lore" values are making it unfun, I would hope that any developer would quickly ditch "purism" for fun.

[Gwydion fab Don]

CoffiNail, on 14 May 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Yeah some IS will win fights. I think a lot of people think the Clans steamrolled and took almost no loses. Yet IS did win fights, rarely 1v1 fights, iirc the Combine commanders had to tell their MW in the DCMS to not accept the honor duels, as they almost always lost.

I can think of a total of 3 worlds the Clans failed to take in the 3050 invasion: Wolcott, Luthien, and Tukayyid. Other than local victories that failed to hold the objective planet, it pretty much was a steamroll from a strategic perspective. Heck, Tukayyid may never have even happened if the Wolf ilKhan (can't recall his name) didn't intentionally let the plan to take over Terra slip to Comstar. The Clans may have taken losses, and they may not have been invincible, but in terms of success to loss ratio regarding planetary invasion their numbers were impressive.

[Kenyon Burguess]

parts expense isnt a combat disadvantage that will balance the game. neither is 12 on 10. clan mechs are worth 2 IS mechs

[Gwydion fab Don]

Banditman, on 14 May 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

"Lore Purists" in any game are the bane of fun.

I'm glad they enjoyed the lore, but seriously, this is a game we're talking about and if the "lore" values are making it unfun, I would hope that any developer would quickly ditch "purism" for fun.

Yes and no. For some of us, a degree of purism is what makes a game fun. Otherwise the atmosphere loses something.

[Snotling]

Gwydion fab Don, on 14 May 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Yes and no. For some of us, a degree of purism is what makes a game fun. Otherwise the atmosphere loses something.

yea, but if someone tells me the game stopps beeing fun for him, because some arbitrary number changed a little.........

[IceSerpent]

Nighthound, on 14 May 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Wenn a fight starts, all Mechs have Green indicators (like those of your own team - indicators are the little red arrows seen in the vids).
If a Clan player shoots at an enemy Mech for the first time, or is beeing shot at for the first time by an enemy, this indicator would turn red for that player and blue for his teammates, while all other enemy Mechs would turn blue for him. If he would now shoot at a blue Mech he would loose some honor points (amount to be determined by damage done) if he continues to fire at blue Mechs he will loose Points in the long run and thus never be able to advance in rank.

I like the idea with a few modifications - when the fight starts, all friendly mechs have green indicators and all enemy mechs are red. When you hit somebody or somebody hits you, that mech's indicator turns blue for the rest of your team. If one of your teammates hits your target or two of the enemy mechs hit you (or your teammate), zellbrigen is broken and all indicators revert to normal (green for friendly, red for hostile).

[Iron Horse]

Prosperity Park, on 14 May 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

Also, all the parts for your weapons/Mechs are made back in the Kerensky Cluster so replacements will be hard to come by.

+1!

Walter Soebchak, on 14 May 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

The Clans used a bidding system where they bid down to the lowest amount of units necessary for a battle. So, this could mean that units would put in bids and the lowest bid would get the battle. It would be similar to a contract bidding system, but instead be used to gain honor points. Also, this would give the Inner Sphere units an advantage in numbers most of the time because the clan units would be entering the field in reduced numbers.

I agree. This is a great canon way to deal with this issue.

Garth Erlam, on 14 May 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I'd say the massively expensive 'Mechs and parts are one drawback

Clanners don't care about expenses. They just pistol-whip their Techs until the repairs are finished. Maybe this could be a mini-game? lol

Geist Null, on 14 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

parts expense isnt a combat disadvantage that will balance the game. neither is 12 on 10. clan mechs are worth 2 IS mechs

Maybe Clans get much lower rewards for dropping as a full binary, so players will "bid-down" on their own for the higher rewards gained from landing fewer units/tons. Additionally, allowing them to land a full binary will force the IS pilots to outperform the Clanners tactically or suffer together.

One more quick thought: I don't remember who metioned the Honor-Point system, but I liked many of the basic ideas in that one. Just to quickly add to that, there could also be a "Bondsman" system (obviously not canon, as you would get to pilot a 'mech right away,) but maybe this could be like a "Recruit" rank where there's less penalty for failure while you learn the Clan fighting system (I agree with most of the posters that Zellbrigen should be enforced in the HUD and through bonuses). Just my two cents!

[WraithTR1]

Start with 12 IS vs. 10 Clan, increase the price of repairing clan equipment, and work a way for batchalls to fit in. For example, if a Clan player uses 10 mechs then they get a x1 multiplier to their overall winnings at the end of a match. As they lower the number of mechs then they get a higher multiplier stopping at say around x1.5. Nothing to give them a huge advantage, but something to make them want to fight more like a Clan warrior.

[sng ign]

People will find a way around zellbrigen; the workable way is to use Battleforce values to weigh Clan machines vs. IS machines during mixed team matches.

[Mr Smiles]

Garth Erlam, on 14 May 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I'd say the massively expensive 'Mechs and parts are one drawback

Any suggestions? (IE. Post them on the suggestions forum ;D)

I don't know anything about XP penalties, but I will say that I crunched some numbers a while back and, on average, the BV of a five-man (star) Clan team is actually REASONABLY close to a 12-man (company) IS team.

I don't think there's any other way to satisfy both the people who want balanced matches AND the people who want overpowered Clan tech except to have Clan vs. IS matches be 5v12

Edited by Mr. Smiles, 14 May 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Clanners should lose copius XP every time they lose to a bunch of low-grade Freebirthers...

[sng ign]

Thomas Hogarth, on 14 May 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

I had an idea awhile back that might work for the Clans:

</p>
This guy is crazy into it. I like it.

[LackofCertainty]

Garth Erlam, on 14 May 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I'd say the massively expensive 'Mechs and parts are one drawback

Any suggestions? (IE. Post them on the suggestions forum ;D)

Eh, I don't generally like cost as a means of balance. If you use cost as a means of balance, then it doesn't balance high skilled players (who can always afford what they need) while it punishes less skilled players in a large way. Also, if the costs get too out of hand, it can easily turn into P2W model, where people who are willing to put money into the game have superior mechs/gear to people who don't.

Rear Admiral, on 14 May 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

To me, the main disadvantage to being the clans, and the sole reason the IS was able to defeat them, was their rigid honor code. Without that bit of fluff - which was added by the BT devs so that the IS would stand ANY chance at all against them - the IS would be doomed.

So, how to simulate that in a video game where clan players mostly have no honor, or maybe arent even aware that they're supposed to abide by zellbrigen? As I've pondered this question the last few weeks, i think the simplest solution is a penalty to the clan players c-bill(or honor influence points, or wahtever currency they will use) when they dont abide by zellbrigen. For instance, my thor jumps over the hill, sees a hunchback and opens up on him. He is now my designated zellbrigen honor opponent, and if i fire on another enemy, i get a big -5000 honor pts/cbills/whatever for doing that. If i continue firing at another target thats not my designated opponent, the penalties will stack up so much that i cant afford to repair my mech, let alone get another. Simple, and elegent. Popular? that is another question...

And: IS should NOT have access to clan tech. Period.

I'm gonna work from the bottom of your post to the top, so try to stick with me.

First off, I 100% agree with your last point. IS should not get access to Clan Tech.

2nd, I do not think a "zelbrigan toggle" would be elegant at all. There are too many variables to take into account for it to be at all useful on a battlefield.

What happens if I am targetting a person with my zelbrigan, and then I get hit by someone else. I should have the right to return fire on them.
What happens if my clan brother and I are both involved in our own 1v1 matchups, and then my target starts shooting my clan brother? Do we have permission to focus fire the offender down for violating zelbrigan?
What happens if I am fighting a person with zelbrigan and they run away. Do I get to choose a new target? What happens if I choose a new target and the old one turns around and re-engages?
What happens if the enemy team starts calling in airstrikes?

The clanners code is a very nice bit of fluff, but I don't think it translates to an online fps very well. A lot of players who only learn about the clans from MWO wouldn't have any of the background info to know what is allowed and what isn't.

The best way to balance it (as previously mentioned) is to make it 10v12 and the clans don't get access to airstrikes/artillery. IS effectively gets 20% more mechs and more tactical options to counter the superior tech of the clanners.

The clanners use zelbrigan, because they have a relatively tiny population compared to the IS. Their worlds are poor in resources (both in terms of ability to support populations and in raw resources) so they developed a their code as a way to use as few resources as possible when fighting. IS has lots of people, and lots of resources. They can afford to lose a couple mechs in order to take down one clanner. I think making matches be 10v12 does a much better job of injecting that fluff into the game than having an overly complicated and clunky zelbrigan system.

A newbie who has no knowledge of BattleTech can take one look at the matchups and see "Oh, the clan team only gets 10 people. I guess they have stronger stuff."

[IceSerpent]

LackofCertainty, on 15 May 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

What happens if I am targetting a person with my zelbrigan, and then I get hit by someone else. I should have the right to return fire on them.

You do have the right - zellbrigen is off as soon as either side "gangs up" on a single target.

Quote

What happens if my clan brother and I are both involved in our own 1v1 matchups, and then my target starts shooting my clan brother? Do we have permission to focus fire the offender down for violating zelbrigan?

Same as above.

Quote

What happens if I am fighting a person with zelbrigan and they run away. Do I get to choose a new target? What happens if I choose a new target and the old one turns around and re-engages?

Not sure about this one, to be honest. Maybe if neither of you have another targeted for X seconds, you can pick a new target?

Quote

What happens if the enemy team starts calling in airstrikes?

I would think that it cancels zelbrigen, but this is also something to discuss.

Quote

The best way to balance it (as previously mentioned) is to make it 10v12 and the clans don't get access to airstrikes/artillery. IS effectively gets 20% more mechs and more tactical options to counter the superior tech of the clanners.

That's a given. Zellbrigen is more along the lines of getting "honor points" or something like that.