6 replies to this topic

[Feral Goose]

Calculations are based upon DHS included in the engines being at 2.0 heat sinking ability, DHS placed in engine crit slots of the engines 275 and above giving 1.4 heat sinking ability and all external engine DHS having the heat sinking ability of 1.4.

DHS=double heatsink
SHS=single(standard) heatsink

The term "heat sinking" I use is the calculation of the total heat dispersing ability of all heat sinks located on a mech. SHS: 1 heat sink for 1 heat sinking ability. DHS: total of 2.0 and 1.4 heat sinking abilities.

Formula:
slots(#crit slots used)= (total heat dispersion)


100-120(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=8 .................... 0slots =4
3slots=9.4 ................. 3slots =7
6slots=10.8 ............... 6slots =10 (6 tons)
9slots=12.2 ............... 9slots =13 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use
12slots=13.6 ............. 12slots=16
15slots=15 ................ 15slots=19
18slots=16.4 (6 tons)...18slots=21
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6 external heatsinks required
21slots=17.8 .............. 21slots=24

***Conclusion DHS is extremley not Optimal to use when it comes to crit space, but at reqired HS needed (6heatsinks/6tons) a DHS mech would have 16.4 heat dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion****

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125-145(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=10 ................ 0slots =5
3slots=11.4 ............. 3slots =8
6slots=12.8 ............. 6slots =11 (5 tons of SHS=10 heat dispersion)
9slots=14.2 ............. 9slots =14
12slots=15.6 ........... 12slots=17 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use
15slots=17 (5 tons)...15slots=20
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5 external heatsinks required
18slots=18.4 ........... 18slots=23
21slots=19.8 ........... 21slots=26

***Conclusion DHS is extremley not Optimal to use when it comes to crit space, but at reqired HS needed (5heatsinks/5tons) a DHS mech would have 17 heat dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion****

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150-170(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=12 .................. 0slots =6
3slots=13.4 ............... 3slots =9
6slots=14.8 ............... 6slots =12 (4 tons of SHS=10 heat dispersion)
9slots=16.2 ............... 9slots =15
12slots=17.6 (4 tons)...12slots=18
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4 external heatsinks required
15slots=19 ................ 15slots=21 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use
18slots=20.4 ............. 18slots=24
21slots=21.8 ............. 21slots=27

***Conclusion DHS is not Optimal to use when it comes to crit space. 13 SHS crit slots = 15 DHS crit slots, but at reqired HS needed (4heatsinks/4tons) a DHS mech would have 17.6 heat dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion****

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175-195(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=14 ................. 0slots =7
3slots=15.4 .............. 3slots =10 (3 tons)
6slots=16.8 .............. 6slots =13
9slots=18.2 (3 tons)... 9slots =16
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3 external heatsinks required
12slots=19.6 ............ 12slots=19
15slots=21 ............... 15slots=22 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use
18slots=22.4 ............ 18slots=25
21slots=23.8 ............ 21slots=28

***Conclusion DHS is not Optimal to use beyond needing 19.6 heat sinking when it comes to crit space, but at reqired HS needed (3heatsinks/3tons) a DHS mech would have 18.2 heat dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion****

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200-220(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=16 ................. 0slots =8
3slots=17.4 .............. 3slots =11 (2 tons of SHS=10 heat dispersion)
6slots=18.8 (2 tons)... 6slots =14
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2 external heatsinks required
9slots=20.2 ............. 9slots =17
12slots=21.6 ........... 12slots=20
15slots=23 .............. 15slots=23 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use at 16 SHS crit slots
18slots=24.4 ........... 18slots=26
21slots=25.8 ........... 21slots=29

***Conclusion DHS is not Optimal to use beyond needing 23 heat sinking when it comes to crit space, but at reqired HS needed (2heatsinks/2tons) a DHS mech would have 18.8 heat dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion********

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225-245(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=18 ............... 0slots =9 (1 ton of SHS=10 heat dispersion)
3slots=19.4 (1 ton)... 3slots =12
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 external heatsink required
6slots=20.8 ........... 6slots =15
9slots=22.2 ........... 9slots =18
12slots=23.6 ......... 12slots=21
15slots=25 ............ 15slots=24 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use at 17 SHS crit slots
18slots=26.4 ......... 18slots=27
21slots=27.8 ......... 21slots=30

***Conclusion DHS is not Optimal to use beyond needing 25 heat sinking when it comes to crit space, but at reqired HS needed (1heatsink/1ton) a DHS mech would have 19.4 heat dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion********

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250-270(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=20 ............. 0slots =10
3slots=21.4 .......... 3slots =13
6slots=22.8 .......... 6slots =16
9slots=24.2 .......... 9slots =19
12slots=25.6 ........ 12slots=22
15slots=27 ........... 15slots=25
18slots=28.4 ........ 18slots=28 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use at 19 SHS crit slots
21slots=29.8 ........ 21slots=31

***Conclusion DHS is not Optimal to use beyond needing 29 heat sinking when it comes to crit space, but at base engine heatsinks DHS has 20 dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion for the same tonnage of engine********

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275-295(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=20 ............ 0slots=10
1slots=21.4 ......... 1slots=11
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 slotspace available in engine
4slots=22.8 ......... 4slots=14
7slots=24.2 ......... 7slots=17
10slots=25.6 ....... 10slots=20
13slots=27 .......... 13slots=23
16slots=28.4 ....... 16slots=26
19slots=29.8 ....... 19slots=29 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use at 20 SHS crit slots
21sloys=31.2 ...... 21slots=32

***Conclusion DHS is not Optimal to use beyond needing 30 heat sinking when it comes to crit space, but at base engine heatsinks DHS has 20 dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion for the same tonnage of engine********

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300-320(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=20 ........... 0slots=10
1slots=21.4 ........ 1slots=11
2slots=22.8 ........ 2slots=12
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2 slotspaces available in engine
5slots=24.2 ........ 5slots=15
8slots=25.6 ........ 8slots=18
11slots=27 ......... 11slots=21
14slots=28.4 ...... 14slots=24
17slots=29.8 ...... 17slots=27
20sloys=31.2 ..... 20slots=30
23slots=32.6 ...... 23sloys=33 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use

***Conclusion DHS is not Optimal to use beyond needing 33 heat sinking when it comes to crit space, but at base engine heatsinks DHS has 20 dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion for the same tonnage of engine********

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325-345(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=20 ........... 0slots=10
1slots=21.4 ........ 1slots=11
2slots=22.8 ........ 2slots=12
3Slots=24.2 ....... 3Slots=13
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3 slotspaces available in engine
6slots=25.6 ....... 6slots=16
9slots=27 .......... 9slots=19
12slots=28.4 ..... 12slots=22
15slots=29.8 ..... 15slots=25
18slots=31.2 ..... 18slots=28
21sloys=32.6 .... 21slots=31
24slots=34 ........ 24sloys=34 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use at 25 SHS crit slots

***Conclusion DHS is not Optimal to use beyond needing 34 heat sinking when it comes to crit space, but at base engine heatsinks DHS has 20 dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion for the same tonnage of engine********

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350-370(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=20 ............ 0slots=10
1slots=21.4 ......... 1slots=11
2slots=22.8 ......... 2slots=12
3Slots=24.2 ........ 3Slots=13
4slots=25.6 ........ 4slots=14
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4 slotspaces available in engine
7slots=27 ........... 7slots=17
10slots=28.4 ...... 10slots=20
13slots=29.8 ...... 13slots=23
16slots=31.2 ...... 16slots=26
19slots=32.6 ...... 19slots=29
22sloys=34 ........ 22slots=32
25slots=35.4 ...... 25sloys=35 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use at 26 SHS crit slots
28slots=36.8 ...... 28slots=38

***Conclusion DHS is not Optimal to use beyond needing 36 heat sinking when it comes to crit space, but at base engine heatsinks DHS has 20 dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion for the same tonnage of engine********

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375-395(400??)(engine size)
DHS ........................... SHS

0slots=20 ............ 0slots=10
1slots=21.4 ......... 1slots=11
2slots=22.8 ......... 2slots=12
3Slots=24.2 ........ 3Slots=13
4slots=25.6 ........ 4slots=14
5slots=27 ........... 5slots=15
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5 slotspaces available in engine
8slots=28.4 ........ 8slots=18
11slots=29.8 ...... 11slots=21
14slots=31.2 ...... 14slots=24
17slots=32.6 ...... 17slots=27
20slots=34 ......... 20slots=30
23sloys=35.4 ..... 23slots=33
26slots=36.8 ...... 26slots=36 <----- SHS becomes more optimal to use at 27 SHS crit slots
29slots=38.2 ...... 29slots=39

***Conclusion DHS is not Optimal to use beyond needing 37 heat sinking when it comes to crit space, but at base engine heatsinks DHS has 20 dispersion where a SHS would have 10 heat dispersion for the same tonnage of engine********

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TOTAL CRIT SLOTS AVAILABLE TAKING ONLY HEAT SINKS INTO ACCOUNT:

Arms = 10 crit slots (8 crit slots is useless lowerarm and hands are present) /each
R/L Torso = 12 crit slots (9 crit slots if XL engine is being used) /each
CT = 2 Crit Slots
Head = 1 Crit slot
Legs = 2 crit slots /each


·Standard engine + SHS + no lowerarm/hand = 51 crit slots for heatsinks (+1[275-295], +2[300-320], +3[325-345], +4[350-370], +5[375-395] [Engines])

·Standard engine + DHS + no lowerarm/hand = 14 crit slots for heatsinks (+1[275-295], +2[300-320], +3[325-345], +4[350-370], +5[375-395] [Engines])

·Standard engine + SHS + lowerarm/hand = 47 crit slots for heatsinks (+1[275-295], +2[300-320], +3[325-345], +4[350-370], +5[375-395] [Engines])

·Standard engine + DHS + lowerarm/hand = 12 crit slots for heatsinks (+1[275-295], +2[300-320], +3[325-345], +4[350-370], +5[375-395] [Engines])

·Xl engine + SHS + no lowerarm/hand = 45 crit slots for heatsinks (+1[275-295], +2[300-320], +3[325-345], +4[350-370], +5[375-395] [Engines])

·Xl engine + DHS + no lowerarm/hand = 12 crit slots for heatsinks (+1[275-295], +2[300-320], +3[325-345], +4[350-370], +5[375-395] [Engines])

·Xl engine + SHS + lowerarm/hand = 41 crit slots for heatsinks (+1[275-295], +2[300-320], +3[325-345], +4[350-370], +5[375-395] [Engines])

·Xl engine + DHS + lowerarm/hand = 10 crit slots for heatsinks (+1[275-295], +2[300-320], +3[325-345], +4[350-370], +5[375-395] [Engines])


This does not take into account mechs that may only have one arm that has lower-arm and hand actuators. So add +4 to any of the two SHS formulas that include "no lowerarm/hand", and/or add +2 to any of the two DHS formulas that include "no lowerarm/hand".


Unfortunately, this all is only part of the larger equation of "how many heat sinks do I need?"

Taken at face value in TT each heat sink dissipates 1 point of heat every round or every 10 seconds. It would appear that this is the same in MWO, only instead of weapons being limited to firing once every round (10 seconds), each weapon has a recycle time much quicker than 10 seconds. Each weapon has it's own different recycle time, but on average, most weapons can be fired 3 times per 10 seconds. (Some like the AC/2 upwards of 20 times)

With this in mind, if one is wishing to fire their weapons non-stop every recycle time, they would need to factor in how many times that weapon is being fired in 10 seconds and multiply that to the initial heat the weapon creates.

I will use the ER Large Laser as an example because of it's more or less round numbers. The ER LL produces 10 heat each time it is fired and it's recycle time is 3.25 seconds, thus can be fired 3 times in 9.75 seconds. Now taking this into account, you would think that making sure a mech has 30 heat soaking ability, would allow you to continue non-stop firing without ever fearing of overheating, but this is not the case. There seems to be a constant carry-over of heat that eventually builds up, even though there ought to be more than enough heat sinks to disperse it. I suspect this may be heat from movement, but even by adding in 3 more points of heat dissipation (for running) the "carry over" still seems to exist. I have not been able to fine tune the math or if there ever really is a way not overheat over a period of time.

I guess this is a trade off to something else that is very different from MWO and TT. In MWO what ever you are aiming at when you alpha strike gets hit by all of your weapons verses the "shotgun effect" in TT where each weapon hit location is a different roll and each one of those rolls has a different percentile of what it will hit.

Roll | Location | % Chance | Fraction Chance

2 ... Center Torso .. 3% ........ 1/36
3 ... Right Arm ....... 8% ........ 3/36
4 ... Right Arm ....... 17% ...... 6/36
5 ... Right Leg ....... 28% ...... 10/36
6 ... Right Torso .... 42% ...... 15/36
7 ... Center Torso . 58% ...... 21/36
8 ... Left Torso ...... 42% ...... 15/36
9 ... Left Leg ......... 28% ...... 10/36
10 . Left Arm ......... 17% ...... 6/36
11 . Left Arm .......... 8% ....... 3/36
12 . Head ............... 3% ....... 1/36

In TT the chances of firing 6 medium lasers and them all hitting the right torso are very low. So we have the trade off of high heat and having to allow cool down rather then alpha-chain firing, for hitting the same target location when alpha or multi-weapon firing (ballistics and energy)

So, short story long, I am unaware of exactly the equation that must be used to calculate how much heat sink dissipation is required to totally dissipate all heat from 1 weapon. But I hope the break down of DHS verses SHS depending on the size of engine, type of engine and tonnage, helps on determining if DHS or SHS works better for your build.

Edited by Wyld Goose, 05 December 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Feral Goose]

Understand that some of the SHS variances would well exceed the tonnage limits on most mechs.

[WardenWolf]

The way they have implemented DHS, I was able to go from singles w/ XL engine in my closed beta Atlas designs to duals w/ standard engine - and about the same amount of heat dissipation (sometimes slightly less). I had expected to have slightly *better* heat dissipation, and I still hope they deal with things somewhat in that regard, but the survivability boost of having a standard engine instead of XL has been huge.

[Feral Goose]

There does seem to be an issue with internal engine DHS or the mechbay has a bug where it's reporting the wrong number. hard to tell.


300XL engine only with it's 10 internal DHS, supposed to be 2.0, without any external DHS at all (including the 2 external engine crit slots). Just the engine and the 10 DHS:




No engine at all, but only 10 external DHS that are supposed to be 1.4 each:



Notice the heat sinks amount in each mechbay? Notice the same Heat efficiency? It seems internal engine DHS are set at 1.4 instead of 2.0 or mechbay isn't showing the correct numbers.

(this test included a stripped down mech with 4 medium laser equipped for heat efficiency test)

Edited by Wyld Goose, 07 December 2012 - 07:29 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

The mech bay efficiency stat wsa never very good, and it doesn't handle the DHS implementation correctly either.


---

On the general idea. I think if you have found a build that needs single heat sinks to get enough dissipation, you are probably already in the realm of an inefficient build. That 10 free engine heat sinks are really too powerful to ignore. If you find yourself working on such a build, use some of the tonnage you planned to use on single heat sinks on ballistic weapons, potentially also removing one of your high heat weapons to make weight for them. You will most likely get a more efficient build, e.g. a build getting more damage out of his tonnage then an alternative build (at no penalty to your survivability or sustainability.)

That said - you don't have a choice on every mech. The Jenner, Awesome, Cicada and Hunchback all of all energy variants, and you can't use anything but energy weapons. That's why this can be problematic.

The good news is that probably only the Awesome really runs into such issues if he's trying to use long range or high damage energy weapons (basically large pulse lasers, er lasers, ppcs and er ppcs). That's why I say that the devs need to get working on those weapons quickly, if they are not willing to give us "true" Double Heat Sinks. (That said - true Double HEat Sinks may make medium and small lasers too powerful, requiring to nerf them. But I don't know - buff DHS and nerf 2 laser types, or keep DHS and buff about 6 energy weapon types... Does it really matter?)

That said, if they want to make DHS and SHS compete in certain areas - the current implementation doesn't do that.

[Bubba Wilkins]

OP: Your methodology is flawed. Your focusing solely on Crit Space when you should be combining both Crit Space and Tonnage.

Take one example:

A standard 350 engine w/ 35 total SHS.
35H/10s Dissipation
71.5 tons of Engine + SHS
21 Crits used by non engine slotted SHS

A standard 375 engine w/ 21 total DHS
35.5/10s Dissipation
66.5 tons of Engine + DHS
18 Crits used by non engine slotted DHS.

You concluded that the SHS build at this point would be optimal and yet I have just proven that the proper DHS configuration is far superior achieving better cooling, less tonnage, less crit space utilized and more speed.

WardenWolf, on 06 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

The way they have implemented DHS, I was able to go from singles w/ XL engine in my closed beta Atlas designs to duals w/ standard engine - and about the same amount of heat dissipation (sometimes slightly less). I had expected to have slightly *better* heat dissipation, and I still hope they deal with things somewhat in that regard, but the survivability boost of having a standard engine instead of XL has been huge.

In every case, a DHS based version of every chassis/variant available nearly matched the cooling, but allowed for larger engines, standard vs XL, more ammo, weapon upgrades, or more armor.

EDIT:
Ignore the heat efficiency bar. It has never been fixed to match the actual performance of DHS.

Edited by Bubba Wilkins, 07 December 2012 - 08:17 AM.

[Feral Goose]

I may have made it sound a bit confusing but to use the 350-370(engine size) as an example:

"***Conclusion DHS is not Optimal to use beyond needing 36 heat sinking when it comes to crit space..."

I meant if you require more than 36 heat sinking points with this engine, then it becomes more optimal to use SHS only in the case of crit space needed, but........and there is a HUGE but, tonnage becomes a different issue.