219 replies to this topic

[Autoxidation]

Do we know for sure 100% of damage transfers from ammo explosions? This seems to be very difficult to test, but I've had several times in game where I'm in an Atlas with AC20 ammo in the right leg. The right leg is destroyed, an ammo explosion goes off, destroys my RT, and leaves me with some damage on my CT. If damage transferred fully shouldn't the destruction of ammo in a destroyed leg kill the CT? Conversely, since I keep 2 tons of ammo in there, I've also had the ammo explosion destroy my CT (I'm guessing that happens when both tons of ammo explode).

I've spent the past hour digging but I can't seem to find anything from the devs beyond a brief rundown on how Gauss Rifle explosions work. Are you sure damage transfers 100% from ammo explosions between internal components, or is it reduced by 50% each jump?

[Kmieciu]

Autoxidation, on 31 August 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Do we know for sure 100% of damage transfers from ammo explosions? This seems to be very difficult to test, but I've had several times in game where I'm in an Atlas with AC20 ammo in the right leg. The right leg is destroyed, an ammo explosion goes off, destroys my RT, and leaves me with some damage on my CT. If damage transferred fully shouldn't the destruction of ammo in a destroyed leg kill the CT? Conversely, since I keep 2 tons of ammo in there, I've also had the ammo explosion destroy my CT (I'm guessing that happens when both tons of ammo explode).

I've spent the past hour digging but I can't seem to find anything from the devs beyond a brief rundown on how Gauss Rifle explosions work. Are you sure damage transfers 100% from ammo explosions between internal components, or is it reduced by 50% each jump?

When ammo gets destroyed (looses it's 10 hp), the explosion chance is said to be 10%. So if you have 2 tonnes of AC20 ammo and you loose the leg, there is a 1% chance they both blow up, 18% chance that one of them blows up, and 81% that there will be no explosion.
You can have 1-7 ammo left in the ammo bin, so the explosion force is equal to 20-140 internal damage. An Atlas has 42 internal HP in the side torso and 62 internal HP in the center torso. Here's the kicker: there is a 50% damage reduction each time a damage passes into another component.
So worst case scenario: the explosion happens when your leg looses all it's internal HP. 50% gets transferred to the side torso: 140*0.5= 70. Your side torso gets destroyed: 42-70 = -28 * 0.5 = 14 damage to the center torso will not destroy you. (As long as you don't carry ammo in the center torso)

As for the rare 1% case then both full ammo bins explode: 280*0.5 = 140 transferred to the side torso. 140-42 = 98*0.5 -> 49 transferred to the center torso.
49<62 so as long as your center torso was undamaged before the explosion, even a double explosion will not kill you.

And that's why everyone and their dog carries ammo in their legs.

Edited by Kmieciu, 04 September 2013 - 05:05 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

And that's why everyone and their dog carries ammo in their legs.

or arms

[Selfish]

Updated the new health values of the Gauss (3->5 HP).

Also, ammo explosions deal full damage as they transfer. They do not suffer a 50% damage reduction.

[Kmieciu]

Selfish, on 15 September 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Also, ammo explosions deal full damage as they transfer. They do not suffer a 50% damage reduction.

Have you tested it?

[Deathlike]

Selfish, on 15 September 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Also, ammo explosions deal full damage as they transfer. They do not suffer a 50% damage reduction.

That could explain a few things. It's a deathblow when you're unlucky/lucky.

Also, has anyone tested damage transfer for Gauss in a Gauss explosion when the Gauss ammo is in the same section of the mech? I know Gauss ammo is supposed to deal 0 damage when destroyed, but I wonder what happens when it is "lit up" in an explosion with the Gauss Rifle.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 September 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[Selfish]

Kmieciu, on 17 September 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

Have you tested it?

Autoxidation did a test. It was destroying his atlas with a single ton explosion from the leg.

Deathlike, on 18 September 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

That could explain a few things. It's a deathblow when you're unlucky/lucky.

Also, has anyone tested damage transfer for Gauss in a Gauss explosion when the Gauss ammo is in the same section of the mech? I know Gauss ammo is supposed to deal 0 damage when destroyed, but I wonder what happens when it is "lit up" in an explosion with the Gauss Rifle.

Gauss ammo is just unavailable when it's destroyed. So you'll lose the ammo count.

[Selfish]

Bumping, and still working on formatting/editing. Every once in awhile the forum seems to decide adding a ton of space between certain objects and de-linking things is a good idea.

[Selfish]

Back to the top!

[Appogee]

What a fantastic OP - thank you!

[stjobe]

Thomas Dizzy-whatshisname expounded some on crits and ammo explosions in a recent post:

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 08 October 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

It's a little more complex then that. Especially with Machine guns as the crit can happen per shot. 10% is dumbing it down, but ya it's 6% for the first critical 3% for the second and 1% for the third PER BULLET (10 times a second) and then the chance for it to detonate the ammo (10%, 90% for Gauss). Other weapons have different crit percentages. Like LBX 14%, 8%, 3%

I think this crit stuff is from TT.

[Huntsman]

So, in regards to crit "buffering" it seems that this article imples that empty critical slots are not subject to crits. Is this correct? If so it makes little sense to me. If a projectile hits the target in a particular location hard enough to crit, but that location just happens to have nothing in it, then that's fortuitous for the target. Why is it that the attacking projectile just decides "hmm, I should be doing a critical hit" and decides to go after something that actually is in that section of the target.

In other words, if a target is struck by a crit in the arm, and there is nothing other than a single AC5 in it (taking up 4 crit slots) and the arm has a total of 10 crit slots, then it makes more sense to me that the crit has a 4 in 10 chance of actually critting something, or a 6 in 10 chance that the crit hit nothing but internal structure, perhaps eliminating those crit spaces, and thus making future crits more likely to hit the AC5, but otherwise doing nothing else unless the attacking projectile also does bonus damage to internals.

[Selfish]

It's actually better/worse than you think. With the latest patch (for crits, about a month or two ago) even crits that strike 'empty space' add to damage. Critical damage transfer, regardless of whether the crit hits something, adds to the additional damage to the component itself. Now even empty components are vulnerable to critical strikes. That extra damage used to go nowhere. Now it's partially filtered back into the opponent.

In your example, if you struck a right arm with just an AC/5 in it. You would have a 100% chance for every crit that occurred to land on it. The only occupied crit slots are the 4 the AC/5 takes. It's 4/4 total occupied slots regardless of how many floating points are in the component (like endo or ferro). You have to occupy the other crit slots with physical items for them to be added to the crit table.

[Satan n stuff]

As far as I know actuators were destroyable when we had R & R, they would show up on the repair window with their damage and associated repair costs like everything else. I think it's safe to assume that hasn't changed, even though they still don't do anything.

[Selfish]

***** n stuff, on 18 October 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

As far as I know actuators were destroyable when we had R & R, they would show up on the repair window with their damage and associated repair costs like everything else. I think it's safe to assume that hasn't changed, even though they still don't do anything.

I know firsthand that when I arrived engines would do that, but never saw it for actuators. I'll send off an email and see if I can't double check.

[Selfish]

I'll give this a bit of a bump. Not too much to report on the crit front. I have been looking into the Itemstats.xml files again and am becoming interested in the peculiarities of ammo explosions. It may be that different kinds of ammo may explode over differing periods of time, but that might just be for its graphical effect. I'm looking into ways to test this in game.

[Marodeur]

Hi,
nice explaination, thank you for that. But I have a question. I also thought that critical hits can only appear if all of the amour of a component is away. But until now I had it a few times, that my internal structure became eg. yellow or even the "criticall damage" symbol appeared, although my complete armour from all components (front and back) were still there. You know how that can happen?
Thanks in advance for any answers.

Edited by Marodeur, 06 November 2013 - 01:15 AM.

[stjobe]

Marodeur, on 06 November 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

Hi,
nice explaination, thank you for that. But I have a question. I also thought that critical hits can only appear if all of the amour of a component is away. But until now I had it a few times, that my internal structure became eg. yellow or even the "criticall damage" symbol appeared, although my complete armour from all components (front and back) were still there. You know how that can happen?
Thanks in advance for any answers.

There's no through-armour criticals from weapons fire in MWO, but the other effects (damaged internal structure with intact armour) can occur if you overheat badly (IIRC at 140% heat you start taking damage to internal structure). It is possible that overheat damage can crit, although I can't say for certain.

Edit: Ah, found the patch note, it's at 120% heat:

Quote

Critical Heat Damage System.
- Mechs reaching 120% heat will start taking damage to their center torso at (0.75 damage + (0.001 damage per tonne) + (0.001 damage per engine rating)) / 1.5 sec.
- The damage will continue until heat drops below 100%. This damage will occur both during an automatic shutdown and when overriding shutdown.
- To indicate this heat damage is being applied, a yellow siren light will turn on inside the cockpit.

Edited by stjobe, 06 November 2013 - 03:00 AM.

[Marodeur]

stjobe, on 06 November 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

There's no through-armour criticals from weapons fire in MWO, but the other effects (damaged internal structure with intact armour) can occur if you overheat badly (IIRC at 140% heat you start taking damage to internal structure). It is possible that overheat damage can crit, although I can't say for certain.

Edit: Ah, found the patch note, it's at 120% heat:

Hey thank you for that really fast answer and the effort to find the patch notes.
Could be possible because of overheating. If it happens next time, I will have a look if it appears after shutdown or during shutdown override.
Thanks!
Cy on the Battlefield...but if you are in the opposing team, you can't anyway expect mercy from me ;-).

[stjobe]

It should also be noted that the "Critical damage" warning occurs when a component has 20% armour left, not when you take a crit:

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 11 October 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

The critical damage warning turns on when any component drops below 20% armor.

Edit: And apparently it's due to change any time now to (internal structure + armour) less than 20%:

Quote

RESULT: The critical damage warning will go off if (internal hit points + armor hit points) &lt; 20% for the Head, Center Torso, Right/Left Torso (if XL Engine Equipped) or if one of the legs is blown off.

DURATION : 2h

ESTIMATED PATCH : Nov 5th 2013

Don't know if that was in yesterday's patch or not though.

Edited by stjobe, 06 November 2013 - 04:44 AM.