69 replies to this topic

[MWHawke]

You lost because the enemy capture of your base was more than your own.

[Krazy Kat]

I don't understand the problem at all.

The first internet multiplayer games never had this problem. The game server ran all the hit calculations and movement data. If you lagged badly the only one who suffered was you. If they lose your packets then you just stand there doing nothing. Or if moving you keep moving in the same direction.

How can your lag affect my hits? The server says you are at x,y,z. I aim at x,y,z. I hit.

I almost want to call bulls**t on this post, but OP sounds legit. If this is real, there are serious problems with the netcode.

Edit: One more question: If you were lagging so badly how did you get 7 kills? When I lag I usually miss everything.

Edited by Krazy Kat, 08 December 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[Felix]

Krazy Kat, on 08 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

I don't understand the problem at all.

The first internet multiplayer games never had this problem. The game server ran all the hit calculations and movement data. If you lagged badly the only one who suffered was you. If they lose your packets then you just stand there doing nothing. Or if moving you keep moving in the same direction.

How can your lag affect my hits? The server says you are at x,y,z. I aim at x,y,z. I hit.

I almost want to call bull s**t on this post, but OP sounds legit. If this is real, there are serious problems with the netcode.

Those other games relied on client side hit detection, basicly if you hit them on your screen that was reported to the server and then reported to the person you shot.

In this game it is server side hit detection, the shot is sent to the server, and it is compared to the location of the player that is sent from their computer and compared, if they dont match up you dont get a hit.

[Obeast]

Its real man, unfortunately. I don't pretend to know why, or how, just that it does.

[MrPenguin]

MagicHamsta, on 08 December 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

+ Netflix?
Aye, watching shows online is totally overpowered.
(.-.)

Thats what I read too!

[Krazy Kat]

Felix, on 08 December 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Those other games relied on client side hit detection, basicly if you hit them on your screen that was reported to the server and then reported to the person you shot.

In this game it is server side hit detection, the shot is sent to the server, and it is compared to the location of the player that is sent from their computer and compared, if they dont match up you dont get a hit.

If that is true there is a serious problem. Most games give the player lag-based prediction of where they are to compensate for lagged players, but the server determines where they are at any time. Like I said, The server says you are at x,y,z. I aim at x,y,z. I hit.

Also, If this is true, anyone with skillz could hack their location, or hack their speed. If the client tells the server where they are, the client wins and the server loses.

Edited by Krazy Kat, 08 December 2012 - 06:03 PM.

[Felix]

MrPenguin, on 08 December 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

Thats what I read too!

You read it right, using Netflix eats up a lot of bandwidth, allowing you to super power your lag shield so that others cant hit you, with guided weapons it didnt matter much but with direct fire weapons its brutal.

Krazy Kat, on 08 December 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

If that is true there is a serious problem. Most games give the player lag-based prediction of where they are to compensate for lagged players, but the server determines where they are at any time. Like I said, The server says you are at x,y,z. I aim at x,y,z. I hit.

Love it or hate it, its what we are stuck with.

[aspect]

Felix, on 08 December 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Those other games relied on client side hit detection, basicly if you hit them on your screen that was reported to the server and then reported to the person you shot.

In this game it is server side hit detection, the shot is sent to the server, and it is compared to the location of the player that is sent from their computer and compared, if they dont match up you dont get a hit.

No. Those games relied on server-side calculation of client location and movement. The problem is, from the client's perspective, the game would start getting really jerky and awful as their ping increased. Nowadays, the default setting is to let the client-side stuff look smooth and awesome, while the server waits 800ms for updates from the client (and then suddenly updates the other players, resulting in teleporting etc). This requires the server to run 100% of the movement, collision detection etc stuff, which probably gets pretty resource-heavy.

If everything is 100% server-side, the movement of a high-ping player is butter smooth for the other players (the other players will just see a lot of running against walls, etc), and horrifically unplayable for that one player (they will bounce around as they get laggy updates from the server of where they actually are on the map).

Keep in mind that a higher-ping player would not be able to hit anyone as they glitched around, and they would probably stop playing immediately. With the more modern style of netcode, those higher ping players are largely unaware of their problem, and it's usually not gamebreaking for other people either as they just occasionally see people that are hard to hit. It's a marketing thing I think (more retained users overall). I also would avoid blaming PGI for this, as pretty much ALL multiplayer games seem to have this setup now and it's probably coded right into the engine.

[Team Leader]

brb starting up netflix

[Krazy Kat]

aspect, on 08 December 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

No. Those games relied on server-side calculation of client location and movement. The problem is, from the client's perspective, the game would start getting really jerky and awful as their ping increased. Nowadays, the default setting is to let the client-side stuff look smooth and awesome, while the server waits 800ms for updates from the client (and then suddenly updates the other players, resulting in teleporting etc). This requires the server to run 100% of the movement, collision detection etc stuff, which probably gets pretty resource-heavy.

If everything is 100% server-side, the movement of a high-ping player is butter smooth for the other players (the other players will just see a lot of running against walls, etc), and horrifically unplayable for that one player (they will bounce around as they get laggy updates from the server of where they actually are on the map).

Keep in mind that a higher-ping player would not be able to hit anyone as they glitched around, and they would probably stop playing immediately. With the more modern style of netcode, those higher ping players are largely unaware of their problem, and it's usually not gamebreaking for other people either as they just occasionally see people that are hard to hit. It's a marketing thing I think (more retained users overall). I also would avoid blaming PGI for this, as pretty much ALL multiplayer games seem to have this setup now and it's probably coded right into the engine.

I won't call you a liar but I can't believe that what you say is true. Everything should be run by the server. The lagging player should be punished for his bad lag. Just ignore his outdated packets and move on. If what you say is true then any game could be ruined with this tactic.

BTW no one answered my previous question: If you were lagging so badly how did you get 7 kills? When I lag I usually miss everything.

[KhanCipher]

ok, then explain why i get lag spikes going from 60ms straight to 1000-2000ms in 8-mans, but it doesn't happen in any other game i play? (i played some saints row co-op (and some TF2, and BLR) and there wasn't anything anywhere near as bad as this was going, actually the lag spikes never happened.)

Edited by KhanCipher, 08 December 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[BoomDog]

Good post OP. Thanks for posting the truth, rather than secretly using this knowledge to stat pad like a loser would do.

My worst case of lagshield: Had a jenner come flying by me. I launched 2 SRM6s at him and nailed him dead center. Explosions and everything. Glanced at his damage icon, nothing. He was still at full armor.

As it stands, I'd rather run into an Atlas with my centurion than fight a lagshielded Raven with ECM.

[xRaeder]

Krazy Kat, on 08 December 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

I won't call you a liar but I can't believe that what you say is true. Everything should be run by the server. The lagging player should be punished for his bad lag. Just ignore his outdated packets and move on. If what you say is true then any game could be ruined with this tactic.

BTW no one answered my previous question: If you were lagging so badly how did you get 7 kills? When I lag I usually miss everything.

I can't answer your question but I can tell you this.

PGI cannot afford to punish players with high latency. The reason for that is that they are throwing Europeans and Oceanics into fights with US based players on US based servers. The advantage is always going to be with the US based players.

This leads back to the best thing that PGI can do is allow 3rd party hosting of servers much like BF3. This eliminates PUG vs Premade issues, afkers, and these lag issues.

[shabowie]

xRaeder, on 08 December 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

This leads back to the best thing that PGI can do is allow 3rd party hosting of servers much like BF3. This eliminates PUG vs Premade issues, afkers, and these lag issues.

It also reduces their overhead, not really sure why the bean counters haven't figured that out but are making them put in 3rd person views.

[Seanamal]

HMMM. Maybe I should upgrade to 9600 dial up to improve my K/D ratio!

[Krazy Kat]

Seanamal, on 08 December 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

HMMM. Maybe I should upgrade to 9600 dial up to improve my K/D ratio!

Bump. This problem needs to be fixed.

[Team Leader]

xRaeder, on 08 December 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

PGI cannot afford to punish players with high latency. The reason for that is that they are throwing Europeans and Oceanics into fights with US based players on US based servers. The advantage is always going to be with the US based players.

You mean Canadian/North American, right?

[Kaspirikay]

This is the main reason why i run streaks.

[bug3at3r]

What I dont get is...

Wasnt the netcode better in closed beta?

[topgun505]

ECM is not the main problem. It is a symptom.

Light mechs take half damage from anything other than other lights.
Knockdown, for now, has been removed ... which was another major issue for light mechs
Netcode is so bad that anything moving 100 kph or more frequently teleports 20m at a time making leading with SRMs or ballistics nearly impossible except for point blank range (and even then, difficult).

This leaves other light mechs and Streak missiles as the major counter to lights ... which was why we saw Streak-kitties in such abundance. They were the natural predator for lights as a result.

Now that ECM is in place ... if you don't have superior ECM to overwhelm the opponents ECM ... that means two things. 1. You will be unable to LRM or Streak them. 2. If they are out ECM-ing you then chances are this means they also have superior number of light mechs as well.

Given pilots of equal skill this means that generally speaking they will be able to use their streaks to kill your lights while you will be unable to do the same. And with you having few lights it means that your side is going to lose that battle. Once your lights are gone it usually is a rolling roflstomp after that.

You have to have a good way of killing lights ... and right now the only effective way to do so is to bring superior number of streak-armed ECM-equipped Ravens which is why we are seeing such an over-abundance of them. This forces you to try and bring more of said arch-type to the field than your opponent ... which makes team building and tactics rather monochromatic.

If the netcode is fixed and knockdowns return so that lights can be hit by aiming at them or being able to lead them with some reliability (depending on the weapon type) ... then ECM won't be quite so overpowered.

Icebound, on 08 December 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

Streaks were the only viable counter to lagging mechs IMO. Now that they use ECM they take forever to kill, and I've seen more than a few just run in circles spraying lasers everywhere and getting tons of damage dealt.