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State Of Weapon Balance With Double Heat Sinks- 2012-12-08


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#41 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:21 AM

View PostAym, on 11 December 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

Ah but aren't we on the same page that for the sake of MWO clantech should not be lifted from TT values? It shouldn't be straight up superior, but rather different?


I would prefer that approach, but there is a problem that I only now came to realize. We're in this transition period, remember.
The Awesome 9M is one for which this model would work well. You just rebalance the ER PPC so it can work with double heat sinks as side grades.
But what about a mech that uses double heat sinks but still standard 3025 IS weaponry? I am not a Battletech expert, I don't know good examples, but they are bound to exist, since it will still take some time for ER weapons to be available in all sizes.

So may be we are forced to do what countless of MMORPGs are doing - have level and level brackets in which we operate. A "1st level" Mech uses single heat sinks, standard armor and internals, and the most advanced weaponry may be ER weapons (since the IS one seem to be sidegrades, not upgrades).
A 2nd level mech may have IS tech like Ultra AUtocannons, Double Heat Sinks, Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous at his disposal.
And 3rd level Mech would be a Clan mech.

Or we invent our MW:O Battle Value system to balance all this. Whatever. It may just not be possible to have the more advanced tech as side grades at all times, because stock mechs mix tech levels and their low garde tech only works because they mix it with upgraded tech.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 11 December 2012 - 09:23 AM.


#42 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:07 AM

Oh, an interesting update on game balance: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1639491

Paul Inoyue said:

After review, it seems that Large Lasers are working at a rate that is fairly well balanced. That being said, the Large PULSE Laser and ER-Large Lasers seem to be generating too much heat. I've found some new numbers that work fairly well and we'll be putting this into test after the holidays.

The PPC and ER-PPCs also seem to be generating a bit too much heat and like above, I've found new numbers that seem to work and have those going into test as well.

Because this is a very sensitive subject with you all, I am expecting these changes to appear early to mid January because I want to make sure that numerous Mech builds are thoroughly tested before releasing it to the Live servers.

I'll keep you updated as this progresses.

I wonder if they used the same math, because it fits what my math and my charts suggest.

It won't do any good for stock mechs, but at least we may get some (or better) weapon balance at last?

#43 FerretGR

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:24 PM

I might actually be able to use PPCs. And I might stop giving people who take ERLLs crap :D

#44 Karl Split

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:38 PM

Wow impressive work.

Not sure i agree about all the findings, but still im very impressed.

#45 Mechwarrior Buddah

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:58 PM

View PostIkarti Danaro, on 08 December 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

HOW ABOUT WE LEAVE WEAPON BALANCE THE **** ALONE FOR ONCE


see sig

#46 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 09:40 AM

The one thing one could worry about is - may better weapon balance hurt lights? Assuming PGI also fixes lag shield and re-introduces collisions, Light Mechs may find the firepower of heavy and assault mechs suddenly overwhelming as it's increased compared to now or their own is reduced compared to now, and the enemy will have more precision...

I suppose this will be interesting to see...

#47 Kamikaze Viking

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:32 PM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 11 December 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

So may be we are forced to do what countless of MMORPGs are doing - have level and level brackets in which we operate. A "1st level" Mech uses single heat sinks, standard armor and internals, and the most advanced weaponry may be ER weapons (since the IS one seem to be sidegrades, not upgrades).
A 2nd level mech may have IS tech like Ultra AUtocannons, Double Heat Sinks, Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous at his disposal.
And 3rd level Mech would be a Clan mech.


This is very similar to original TT tech levels, and what me and my friends used to do was to define what tech level we were playing at before each game. It led to better balanced games.
Tech improves over time and makes previous tech outdated and inferior. if you took a WWII tank and put it against an M1-Abrahams of course it will lose.

IIRC the Storyline was such that the Clans decimated the IS in their first clan Wolf and Jade Falcon engagements due to the tech difference but the IS quickly scrambled and improved its tech.
I would have no problem that over time certain tech becomes less effective comparatively. But that needs to be balanced by the cost, the old stuff becomes super cheap over time.
Which since they removed the Re-arm and repair costs due to farmers etc, now everyone is just trying to jam in as much high tech as possible. Yes the F-22 Raptor is a great fighter plane, but can you afford one?

Keep up the good work Ridcully, this must take time away from running the Unseen university.

#48 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:43 PM

View PostKamikaze Viking, on 06 February 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Keep up the good work Ridcully, this must take time away from running the Unseen university.

Oh, it basically runs itself these days. And it will do so until Ponder and Hex figure out a way to disenchant my desk and writing utensils, I am afraid.

An updated version of my charts can be found here: http://mwomercs.com/...00#entry1853300

#49 John Johnson

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:05 AM

I don't see too much discussion about the LB10-X. Both SRMs and the LB10-X have spread damage, yet the SRMs have much lower slot and tonnage requirements. I don't see how this is balanced, perhaps I'm overlooking something?

#50 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:42 AM

View PostJohn Johnson, on 07 February 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

I don't see too much discussion about the LB10-X. Both SRMs and the LB10-X have spread damage, yet the SRMs have much lower slot and tonnage requirements. I don't see how this is balanced, perhaps I'm overlooking something?

I don't think you're overlooking something. The topic has come up before. Either the LB10-X is too weak, or the SRM is too good. (Heck, it could be both - the SRM might need a little nudge down, but the LB10 might need a larger nudge up)

I would definitely suggest also getting the discussion of the LB10 X AC topic in the Patch Feedback thread on Game Balance.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 07 February 2013 - 12:43 AM.


#51 Matthias Malthias

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:46 AM

I don't think that PGI has gone the right direction with the most recent patch - even with the heat tuning of the heavy energy
weapons:

Heat Tuning on Large Lasers and PPCs

- Large Laser stays at 7.0.
- Large Pulse Laser reduced from 9.0 to 7.3.
- Extended Range Large Laser reduced from 10.0 to 9.5.
- PPC reduced from 9.0 to 8.0.
- Extended Range PPC reduced from 13.0 to 11.0.
With each consecutive patch, PGI deviates further and further away from canon heat values, and yet does nothing to address the root issue at hand - dissipation. The problem has always been about dissipation, not the heat contribution firing a weapon has to a mech's heat level.

Compounding the problem has been the borked heatscale - with a base of 30, and increasing with bonus heatscale with additional fitted heatsinks - and you get builds that are high alpha, low dissipation skirmishers that really shouldn't be as efficient at their jobs as they are: Case in point - the 45 alpha, 9ML Hunchback 4P:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...be0caf93f50e300
Running this build gives me a 61.2 Heatcap. One alpha strike with all 9 medium lasers is a "mere" 36 heat, for 45 pinpoint damage to a single section. I've decapitated lights with this build. Not only this, but I only have to wait 4-5 seconds before I can alpha Again. Without penalties to movement or accuracy at 80-90% heatcap, I can even stay at this heat level, chainfiring with 0.25 seconds between shots to lose heat. (I wait a half a second on Caustic instead).

A nerf to heat cap would kill this mech, but an increase in dissipation will not actually increase its efficiency at delimbing, decapitating, and de-armouring side torsos in a single salvo. I play with Australian Ping (avg 266), and in a good round will average about 400-600 damage.

Now, granted, some of this terror is due to the simple fact that medium lasers are OP, slot for slot, ton for ton, and heat for heat. But the question has to be asked - how is it that this mech is a terror on the battlefield, where as the stock AWS-9M is essentially a paper tiger?
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=32&l=stock
Go into Smurfy weapon lab and disable all weapon firing except a single ERPPC. You will note that the heat per second of an ERPPC - 3.67 (post patch - prepatch was 4.33recurring) actually exceeds the dissipation per second of the build. Firing the ERPPC on cooldown, chainfire, whatever - it doesn't matter. The HPS exceeds the dissipation per second. You will build heat even firing ONE weapon out of the 9M's 6 weapons, let alone the three ERPPCs. Compare this to the tabletop's optimal damage rotation - 3ERPPC, then 2, then 3. Doing this in game would shut you down after the second salvo.

Add all the systemic problems inherent to the heat system in MWO and you get the patch behaviour of PGI over the last few months. Heat increases to Medium and Small lasers, the removal of the small pulse laser as a viable weapon, the reduction in efficiency of Medium pulse, the large laser heat tweak and damage increase, and the current favoured weapons being high damage per ton, low heat load weapons.

The trend was first to switch to LRMs and SRMs once it was discovered the pulse lasers had anomalous heat generation, and then the introduction of ECM to obviate the need to use cover against the buffed missile weapons. Now the flavour of the month is Gauss, UAC5, and the various catapult boats like the boomcat, gausscat or streak/SRMcat.

And now we have come to the heat tweak of the heavy energy weapons. I feel that even with tweaks, PGI has continued to not address the most salient issue concerning energy weapons - heat dissipation.
The point of my post is not that buffs or nerfs to certain weapons are in order - far from it. PGI has done an excellent job of making most, if not all classes of weapons viable. Even the lower caliber autocannons have their place, whereas they were bad to take on the tabletop. PGI's balance still has a long way to go if their ultimate goal, which I hope is diversity in builds and weapons for all mechs of all classes, is to be reached.

In case it wasn't obvious already, the heat dissipation problem extends to trial mechs as well, which is why for the most part they are considerably worse than they should be in BT canon. When you have pretty much all (canon) stock mechs on trial run super hot and shut down after 2-4 salvos, it does not translate to a good beginner experience, nor does it serve PGI to have newbies turned off the game after shutting down and dying for the tenth game in a row.

TL;DR: PGI doesn't have to do all this weapon tweaking of heat. Just look at the rate of dissipation provided by SHS and DHS, and tweak that. I guarantee that half of your weapon balance issues will disappear overnight.

By the way, here's the cheesiest, beardiest, most "trendy" weapon boating cataphract that I own and run:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9fe1260254debb8
The only way I can build heat (not overheat) is if I fire the Medium lasers on cooldown. It alphas for 60, 30 of which is pinpoint. Elimination of either side torso still leaves me with excellent firepower. It takes me 5 alphas firing on cooldown to reach critical heat (80%). A good round can net me 400-500 damage.

#52 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:02 AM

I completely share your frustration, but at some point I am not sure we can still hope they "get" it. They have taken their own path, and we may dislike it, but I don't feel like we can turn it around anymore. People have been trying since Closed Beta.

#53 Matthias Malthias

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:37 AM

I find laughable, absolutely laughable, that the people from the NGNG podcast, along with Garth Erlam, can play their game on stream nigh on several days per week, without noticing the trends.
http://www.twitch.tv/igp/c/1902242
It is funny to me that the very first thing Sean Lang did to the Pretty Baby, was strip the LRM pack, replace every missile hard point with SRMs, and add the LPL.
Rebuilt in Smurfy for edification
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...72b19f757cb6d08

If you watch the other Twitch videos you will notice that Lang had not used LPLs or PPCs in his mech up until this point of the heat tweak. You will also notice that his opening salvo - 1 LPL, 1 PPC, 3 SRM6 - only took him to 30% heat on Arctic - and it takes him 6 seconds to cool down with 20 DHS (3.4 heat dissipated per second).

Heat for that build would be 27.3 on alpha. (4+4+4+7.3+8, post patch). His heatcap would be 30+20+10x1.4 = 64. On a map without bonuses to heatsinks, such an alpha would take him to 42.65% heat, with the first tick of dissipation occuring after the last salvo of SRMs. Firing on cooldown would likely yield him 2-3 salvos depending on a map's heatload. Guess which weapons, fired on cooldown, would build heat? The PPC and LPL, once again.

It is ironic that Sean mentions that he may have "too many heatsinks" to be running his build. He's not lying. Running 20 DHS would be massively, massively overkill for his current weapon load, if dissipation were implemented correctly. And yet Sean is routinely firing alpha strikes for a "mere" 30% of his heat bar on his first drop in the video; whilst doing so on the older Mechwarrior games, or on TT would put you perilously close to overheat.

The patch has not fixed the heat problems of the heavier energy weapons, merely swept them under the rug. I shudder to imagine the howls of indignation when the clans invade, firing Clan ERPPCs for 15 damage, 15 heat, and shutting down on the second salvo, like the Puma
http://www.sarna.net...dder_%28Puma%29

Then again, it would make the Clan invasion actually beatable, and we wouldn't need the utter stupidity that was the Battle of Tukayyid.

EDIT:
Watch Sean's second drop (Starting 12 minutes in) where he runs a CTF3D with 2 ERPPCs, 1 AC5, 2ML, std300. Rebuilt in Smurfy:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3b977d193be7faf

Notice how even on elite (Sean has speed tweak, and therefore both heat XP boosts) the 3D chassis with its 14DHS builds heat even with Sean limiting himself to firing only one ERPPC once the distance closes to brawl?
"Nope, it's too hot". - Sean Lang

It really shouldn't be. But once again, we see that whilst DHS boosts Sean's heat cap through the roof, his actual dissipation means that he cannot sustain his rate of fire once the Cicada circles him. He has to fall back to his AC5 - suboptimal for dealing with fast movers.

Gauss doesn't have this problem. Neither do SRMs or Streaks.
Now, I'm not saying that Gauss has to be nerfed, or SRMs, or Streaks. Far from it. But this patch has shown that heat tweaks have not done much, and will continue to fail to provide a viable metagame that supports PPCs.

By the way, here's a build for the 3D that I run:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9ca8d9c9eed4c1b
It runs 12DHS, and yet still builds heat. The source of heat? The 2 large lasers. Even chain fired, I will build heat. It's a high heat load, high pilot load mech that will lose to Gauss and SRM brawlers. The jumpjet is for jack-knife turns to AC20 snarky lights in the CT.

Guess what the best thing you can do for the build is?
Thats right. Strip the AC20 and a DHS, and put in a Gauss. Lower heat load, better all range capability, slightly lowered alpha, and an increase in sustainable DPS, which is better for brawls.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d2af1e396080678

It's a crazy metagame that we live in right now.

Edited by Matthias Malthias, 07 February 2013 - 03:17 AM.






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