36 replies to this topic

[Kreisel]

Simply put, on of the primary reasons ECM is SOOO powerful is because their is only a window of 20 range in which is does not effect your mech, and every mech in the game can move out of that window in less time that in takes to establish a solid lock.

It would make a significant difference in how it feels to play against ECM mechs if instead of reducing sensor range TO 25% it reduced it BY 25%, the same amount as BAP, which is basically supposed to be the equivalent sensor equipment.

It could do everything it does now, but just have that one change and it would feel significantly more balanced. Especially if it interacted with other sensor equipment in a straightforward way.

ECM reduces range by 25%, BAP increases it by the same... congrats you have normal range.
Even a 50% reduction would be very powerful, but make players working under cover of ECM use more skill and have to act move dynamically to take full advantage of it.

In it's current form ECM acts as a better AMS, for the whole team. With a change in ranges, AMS would retain usefulness even on a mech that is running ECM.

Another option that might bring it into balance, is if instead of doing all the things it does now at once, make ECM have to switch modes for each different type of disruption, only allowing it a few of it's current effects at a time.

There are a lot of other things I've heard flying around the forums too, I'll try to leave space for them in the poll to help get a feel for what players would feel would balance ECM the best.

I want people to remember... it's really subjective opinion on what feels overpowered or not, we're not the be all end all of if something is balanced... but it can help to let PGI know what 'feels about right' to us rather than demand 'this is the way it should be.'

Edited by Kreisel, 10 December 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Peiper]

ECM should not affect streaks (as in tabletop). Streaks, themselves, however should perhaps be a little more touchy, like: you have to actually have the target in the recticle when you launch the streaks, along with having lock. Otherwise, the missles don't fire.

All mechs should be able to take ECM.

ECM should work like it does in tabletop.

Counter-ECM gear should be limited to scout mech-types, and should be an additional piece of gear.

Null signature systems should be considered for those mechs which would act like ECM does now, preventing lock on and identification until the mech fires weapons, in which case it only reactivates after a cooldown. This system, making you indefinately untrackable, should take up critical slots in all mech parts, like the Null Signature System of the future (Stealth Armor.)

Mechs should still show up on radar, and should still be identifiable (alpha, beta, charlie, etc.) though information like damage diagrams, and lock ons could be affected by ECM.

ECM gear should not stack. It generates noise. Multiple ECMs would just make more and more noise, and if they do stack, they should negatively affect friend and foe alike. It's not a full spectrum jammer, rather, it is meant to counter certain systems: Artemis, BAP, NARC.

Also, be sure to vote here: http://mwomercs.com/...40#entry1571766

[Kreisel]

Peiper, on 08 December 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

ECM should not affect streaks (as in tabletop). Streaks, themselves, however should perhaps be a little more touchy, like: you have to actually have the target in the recticle when you launch the streaks, along with having lock. Otherwise, the missles don't fire.

All mechs should be able to take ECM.

ECM should work like it does in tabletop.

Counter-ECM gear should be limited to scout mech-types, and should be an additional piece of gear.

Null signature systems should be considered for those mechs which would act like ECM does now, preventing lock on and identification until the mech fires weapons, in which case it only reactivates after a cooldown. This system, making you indefinately untrackable, should take up critical slots in all mech parts, like the Null Signature System of the future (Stealth Armor.)

Mechs should still show up on radar, and should still be identifiable (alpha, beta, charlie, etc.) though information like damage diagrams, and lock ons could be affected by ECM.

ECM gear should not stack. It generates noise. Multiple ECMs would just make more and more noise, and if they do stack, they should negatively affect friend and foe alike. It's not a full spectrum jammer, rather, it is meant to counter certain systems: Artemis, BAP, NARC.

Also, be sure to vote here: http://mwomercs.com/...40#entry1571766

You raises some good points. I had forgot about Null signature System and the current ECM does feel almost like cramming ECM and Null signature together, it does more than either of those systems alone is described to do.

Frankly speaking, it looks like they put a lot of work into the current ECM system, so I don't expect a drastic overhaul in how it works, unless they suddenly add something else that works much like ECM does now. It made it to live open beta, so It's more realistic to assume they will tweak the current system than remake it as something else unless they decide it's completely unacceptable the way it is.

honestly I think the current form of ECM is interesting and adds interesting, and can add interesting dynamics to a game, it's just a little too ALL encompassing right now. I'd like to see what it does split up over several modules or into different modes it can only do 1 of at a time, or multiple pieces of equipment.

Unless your choosing to run SRM right now the Catapult and certain variants of other mechs are running the risk of just being completely helpless, literally not able to attack at all with their primary weapons if even a single single mech on the other team is running a 1.5 ton part. TAG isn't enough to help, especially since it doesn't work under 180, and the A1 can't even equip it. Your dependent on someone else on your team having ECM to counter with (since you can't mount it).

Personally I think it creates an interesting Niche flavor for certain mechs/variants to be the only ones that can carry it, and it allows the Devs to balance the mech chassis for the power it adds (once they get into more dynamic variants than just hardpoints), but for it to be balanced to do that it needs to be something that players feel is useful for a team but not essential for success, it needs to be weighed equally against the other options that could have taken that mechs place.

Everything ECM does adds interesting dynamics to the game, but it's just too tight, too good, and does too much of it together, and there isn't enough room to have a realistic gap to fight back against it in if you don't have the right build and I really don't support the idea of a design where equipment is so rock paper scissors that if you happened to build your mech with missiles when you launch you have no idea if you'll be lucky enough that the team make up gives you a chance to fight at all. You shouldn't NEED a specific piece of equipment to counter ECM, you should be able to do so with sound tactics and controlling the flow and positioning of the battle to your advantage.

Right now, a missile boat could at-least function alright if they could stay between 180 to 200, but it's just not realistic to be able to do so... changing the range seems like a pretty easy and quick change, that could be tested to see if that makes a signification difference in how players feel about ECM. If players still feel it's OP then at-least it's a step in the right direction and it narrows down the dynamic as to why it does.

[Jalak Bali]

The problem with ECM right now is that it's doing EVERYTHING at once. It's too good. Let's review what the ECM does:

1. Cloak your mech and friendly mech's signature that enemies cannot get a lock. This also hides your mech and team's radar blip.
2. Disrupt lock-ons and signal sharing of hostile mechs within the bubble. This also hides your mech and only your mech's radar blip.
3. Counter another mech's ECM.

Those should be done by different things, not by a single thing.

Number 1 should be countered by NARC. Your group is cloaked because the enemy far away can't identify them correctly, but not because the targeting system of the enemy is disrupted. That's number 2.

Number 2 should be countered by TAG. TAG doesn't use any radio, it's a laser pointer to measure distance of target. A mech inside number 2's bubble should be able to get a target lock if he TAGed the target but he cannot share the info with the rest of his team.

TAG should also counter number 1 if the mech using the TAG is outside of number 2's bubble. NARC is useless if the NARCed mech is inside number 2's bubble.

BAP should counter number 1 but only within a short distance. The mech can share the info with his team, unless he's also inside the bubble of number 2. Then he can target only for himself.

Then put each different ECM types on different chassis, giving each of them a different role. 8-man groups will be forced to be more balanced, instead of an all Raven+Atlas groups we have now.

In summary:
Separate the ECM into different things. Well, the counter can be combined with number 2, like the switch we have now.
NARC will let your friends target the enemy (if not bubbled by number 2) but only lasted a few seconds. But you can NARC then run away.
TAG lets you do the same but requires you to be in medium distance and in direct LOS, as long as you're not bubbled. But if you do, you can still lock on the target yourself.
BAP nullifies number 1 (if you're not bubbled by number 2) but you have to be up close.

[General Taskeen]

The simple change for ECM is the following:

• Cloak functionality removed (180-800m) replaced with time to detection. Or, in other words, it takes another Mech's sensors more time to eventually detect an enemy Mech utilizing ECM in the 180-800m range if they suddenly show up in LOS. (A TAG would still instantly detect within its effective range, but not under 180m). Then, the flat rate of 25% more time for the target lock remains the same after a Mech's sensors finally get through. This change is two fold: It allows stock-builds that don't utilize the 'hard counter' TAG to actually exist, this gives Trial Mech users a fighting chance. This returns ECM to a better scouting tool, rather than being abused as a brawling tool.

• Inside the ECM 180m band does not make a Mech with ECM like-wise invincible to be counter-locked, unless a 'hard-counter' ECCM shows. Instead give this a 40-50% more time to lock against an ECM Mech inside their range of influence. This change would would make ECM a much more tactical option where the user must be careful as they can eventually be locked on to, combine this with the fact that if they stick around too long, another enemy Mech's sensors at long-range may detect them if they are in LOS.

• With this BAP becomes a semi-counter, since one can stack BAP/Sensor module allowing your LOS sensors to extend beyond 800m. Your Mech would be able to pick up an ECM Mech quicker since your LOS radar detection "time to detection" has started sooner than a Mech without BAP, which sensor range only starts at 800m.

[Kreisel]

Some interesting Ideas, updated the polls to hopefully reflect them.

[psychoelf]

Why cant all mechs use it? Pretty soon, the only mechs that will be played is the arbitrary 4 mechs they gave it to.

[Bridgeboy]

Seriously, the biggest change needed is that ECM counter counters all ECM. That invalidates the 8 man ECM assault team, but still allows for stealth where needed.

[Bobzilla]

I don't think ECM should give stealth. If anything it should make them eaiser to be detected and they are broadcasting something strong, like the opposite of being shut down.
Make lock-on impossible sure, block comms to other mechs, sure.
Stealth should be a different piece of equipment.

[Kreisel]

psychoelf, on 09 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

Why cant all mechs use it? Pretty soon, the only mechs that will be played is the arbitrary 4 mechs they gave it to.

Doesn't that inherently indicated the equipment is not balanced? The solution shouldn't be, just everyone devotes 1.5 tons to have it all the time. If it's balanced then the flavor should be that it's good, and you want it, but you have to balance it against other options. The Raven is a great example, only 1 variant has jump jets and ballistic slots, within reason those should be serious considerations for taking that over the Raven with ECM. I think we all know that right now, it's really not (outside of farming mastery XP for your 3L). Only certain variants/mechs having the option to mount it is interesting it adds flavor, but the other varients need to be getting something just as cool and unique to make them stand out in their own way as well.

Bridgeboy, on 09 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

Seriously, the biggest change needed is that ECM counter counters all ECM. That invalidates the 8 man ECM assault team, but still allows for stealth where needed.

Doesn't that fail to address why the 8 man ECM teams are a problem in the first place, or help teams that come up against this without ECM of their own?

Bobzilla, on 09 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I don't think ECM should give stealth. If anything it should make them eaiser to be detected and they are broadcasting something strong, like the opposite of being shut down.
Make lock-on impossible sure, block comms to other mechs, sure.
Stealth should be a different piece of equipment.

What are you defining as stealth here? because from the way I see it... since locking on, or receiving data from a friendly lock on is how you get people to appear on radar... what your describing that it's ok they have, is exactly what your saying they shouldn't have.

[Jalak Bali]

psychoelf, on 09 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

Why cant all mechs use it? Pretty soon, the only mechs that will be played is the arbitrary 4 mechs they gave it to.

Bad idea. Then it will just become a must-have item and balance wise we're back to pre-ECM era. Giving ECM to certain mechs give that mech a strength, which should be countered by having weaknesses. Ravens were non-existent before ECM because the Jenner was better. But due to ECM so overwhelming, they have replaced the Jenner. If anything, ECM should be balanced by giving to the mechs with least speed and/or DPS so there's a reason to use them.

Bobzilla, on 09 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I don't think ECM should give stealth. If anything it should make them eaiser to be detected and they are broadcasting something strong, like the opposite of being shut down.
Make lock-on impossible sure, block comms to other mechs, sure.
Stealth should be a different piece of equipment.

It depends on how mech recognition is done lore-wise in this game. Is it from thermal radiation? Is it radar? Is it silhouette? Radar is obviously not since our mechs could detect immobile mechs. So most likely it's thermal. This cloaking device is masking the mech's heat by either making it extra cool or generating a disturbance field. We can rule out cooling since it would mess with the current heat system. So a cloaking field would generate a "fake" thermal field, masking everything in it.

What I would propose is separating this cloaking device (like in my previous post) and also make the field (bubble) itself appear in thermal vision. This would make thermal have further tactical use since you can sorta see where the cloaking field is but you can't tell how many and what mechs are there. It can also be used to confuse or lure the enemy. It's also great if you can turn it on and off. Yes, this is a nerf to the cloaking effect since now it's mostly just an umbrella against LRMs (but also the added bonus against snipers using thermal) but you can't really use it to sneak your entire team around since anyone using thermal can see the bubble moving.

Wouldn't it be neat to make the enemy rush or defend against a slow moving thermal bubble only to find it to be a single Raven walking in slow speed while your entire team is actually approaching from the other direction?

[Bobzilla]

Kreisel, on 09 December 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

What are you defining as stealth here? because from the way I see it... since locking on, or receiving data from a friendly lock on is how you get people to appear on radar... what your describing that it's ok they have, is exactly what your saying they shouldn't have.

I define stealth as not showing up on the radar. Lock-on is for weapons. You don't need a lock-on or even have a lock-on weapon to see enemies showing up on the radar (hud dots, mini-map, red boxes, red triangles). What im saying is ECM should only affect weapons or communicating info with friendlies.

[Kreisel]

Bobzilla, on 09 December 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

I define stealth as not showing up on the radar. Lock-on is for weapons. You don't need a lock-on or even have a lock-on weapon to see enemies showing up on the radar (hud dots, mini-map, red boxes, red triangles). What im saying is ECM should only affect weapons or communicating info with friendlies.

I think your missing part of how the current system for Radar works, Hud-dots, mini-map, red boxes and red triangles are all tied to locking on the target or having direct line of sight, Unless a friendly has a lock on the target or your looking directly at them they wont appear on the minimap or as a red dot, even if they are directly behind you or right next to you (unless you have the 360 module, and I think that requires you to have a lock on them.) And frankly speaking a HUD/map that only shows me the foes I can personally already see on my screen... not very useful.

I could see missile lock as different, but you need a sensor lock to communicate position and data.

then again I could just be getting confused since they use the same wording for 'R' sensor lock and missile target-lock.

If your going to split up the features... isn't stealth more the theme of ECM, and preventing Missile lock a feature that overlaps the function of AMS (which shoots down locked on missiles)? Why make ECM redundant with something else that's supposed to protect from missiles and give something else the stealth abilities which fit to it's theme? Then again... hiding from radar was more what Null-signature was supposed to do, but it's not around in our current time-frame, and would only effect the equipping mech.

[TomLeTigre]

like stated in another post:

i actually dont think they should over-nerf it that much (as i realized, there was no option in your vote for more power / ie larger range).

imho they should not let it touch the minimap indications, where your teammates are. at least that should not be affected by ecm. (and the minimap should be zoomable with + / -).

or there should be a lighter module for every mech (maybe with a HP like the ams), that only counters ECM.

[Tolkien]

From a game balance point of view I do not know what they were thinking with this thing.

ECM does so many things, and weighs less/takes less space than many of the systems it defeats (NARC for a painful example).

And making the only counter to the system to have more of the same system is begging for trouble.


This type of game balance reminds me of what gradeschool kids would do when losing a game of tag - declare themselves to be invisible so you can't catch them.... brilliant.

Edited by Tolkien, 09 December 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

ecm works fine in my opinion ( i don´t use it yet, don´t have a mech for it right now)

ecm should stay for limited chassis as it is

i like the idea of PPC disrupting ecm for a few seconds

ECCM is already in the game

sensor range 50% sounds good to me

BAP is not a counter system to a sensor blocker... there is no reason why it should, it´s a sensor system, and ECM blocks sensor systems... simple as that

tag lasers COULD be slightly increased in range, but imho 750m as planned is way too much... tag works good for me right now, a slight increase of range would be okay though - or a small decrease of ECM radius to - let´s say - 150m instead of 180

honestly: TAG vs. ECM is a challenge i happily accepted, and to good success so far... like the tears of those DDC´s when streaks and LRM´s from me and my team still hit them... if PGI buffs tag to 750m or even "only" 500, it will be a piece of cake...

oh an just FYI: you can dumbfire LRM´s...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 10 December 2012 - 01:20 AM.

[Kreisel]

TomLeTigre, on 09 December 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

like stated in another post:

i actually dont think they should over-nerf it that much (as i realized, there was no option in your vote for more power / ie larger range).

or there should be a lighter module for every mech (maybe with a HP like the ams), that only counters ECM.

Didn't include any option to buff it, because I haven't heard a single person say it needs buffing yet, heard people say it's fine, but so far no one has said it needs to be stronger. Also... increasing the range would result in overlap of it's effects, there would be no 'safe zone' you can get a sensor lock in, and you would run into ranges that both penalize you for being in the 'bubble' and at the same time as being unable to lock onto a target because 'it's too far away'

you bring up a good point in that: If it was re-balanced to not have some of these features maybe it would be reasonable to consider extending the 'bubble'

To be honest I was confused about what ECCM was, I didn't realize it was a mode of ECM, and thought it was a separate piece of equipment that does what TomLeTigre suggested, specifically blocks ECM.

Adrienne Vorton, on 10 December 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

ECCM is already in the game

[snip]

oh an just FYI: you can dumbfire LRM´s...

Thanks for making me look up ECCM, I misunderstood how it works. I'll adjust the poll to reflect this reality.

As for dumbfire on LRM's, yes, you can fire them without a lock, but a 'functional dumbfire mode' is something different. Perhaps I simply haven't spent enough time trying to fire LRM's without a lock (because it was drilled into me, don't waste expensive ammo by firing without a solid lock) But my experience with the Catapult is there is no weapon convergence for LRM's, they fire forward and UP from the rabbit ears and travel in a straight line, once they reach a certain altitude they stay at it, even if you fired them while looking at a downward angle, they never come together or angle toward the crosshair, so short of a jenner jump jetting through them they are never going to hit anything. If I can put my crosshair on an standing still Atlas toes... and the weapon shoots over his shoulders to either side, it's doing nothing but wasting ammo. My Dragon might be another story, since the launcher comes from the center of the mech and tends to travel more forward before gaining much height... but if only some chassis can functionally attack with them that way, it still creates a problem.

[Roadbuster]

ECM shouldn't stack anymore.

1 ECM in counter mode should cancel out all ECM in its range. Maybe reduce counter range to ~100m.

[Horned Bull]

psychoelf, on 09 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

Why cant all mechs use it? Pretty soon, the only mechs that will be played is the arbitrary 4 mechs they gave it to.

Because you don't want to see ECM-streakcat. Also 3 of 4 mechs are really fragile.

I like the idea of streaks dumbfire mode, as it doesn't make SRM obsolete (SRM2 weights less and you get more ammo per tonne). Also it gives defense to those poor streak-hunchies and sadly... streakcats.

I also love idea of ECM-disrupting effect of PPC, that would make PPC viable.

[Solis Obscuri]

Make it work like TT - ECM counters BAP, Artemis and Narc Beacons, and block SSRMs from locking inside 180m.

If you want to buff it, also let it restrict detection range by 25% and delay lock times by 50%.

At that point, it still has a fuckton of advantages for a scout, but doesn't stop basic gameplay from being functional just through its very existence.