176 replies to this topic

[Codejack]

Well, we've had enough feedback, now, and certainly enough experience. Simple game theory tells you how this will work out: You have one system that counters several other systems, and its only counter is itself, which leads to massive imbalances depending on which team has more ECM mechs. Which means that smart teams are running 2+ ECM mechs, which gives them an even bigger advantage than they had before.

I only PUG; my friends don't play PvP games (I'm only here because I am, and always have been, a Mechwarrior fanatic) and I'm not interested in the guild/house/[REDACTED] system so I can play with random strangers, so the choice I face every drop is: Run my ECM mech and hope that the other side doesn't have more, or run one of my fun mechs and hope that everyone on the other side is stupid.

That's the entire balance of the game. The Rochambeau system has been turned into rock-paper-shotgun.

At the very least, there need to be counters to ECM other than, "more ECM." NARC and BAP should each counter ECM in different ways (one long range and one short range?). TAG shouldn't have to keep painting the target so you can lock. The detection range decrease is just insane.

As near as I can tell, the ECM system was balanced against the current state of the game, which is just ALL screwed up due to optimization and netcode issues. Basically, they set out to eliminate the streakcat, and they wound up eliminating all but 4 mechs.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 05 December 2012 - 07:12 PM.
edited per Code of Conduct

[Vermaxx]

PUGing took a hit in the pants. Of course you'll get a dozen posts within 10 minutes of people who don't care aboug the PUG experience and tell you how much more balanced and awesome team play is.

There will never be any good balance until community warfare is done and they can start doing things like living economies and tonnage limits.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I tried to tell them this thing was stupid before it was even released. They need to either significantly nerf this thing or buff the unholy [REDACTED] out of the BAP.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 05 December 2012 - 07:13 PM.
edited per Code of Conduct

[Felicitatem Parco]

2-out-of-three is, indeed, bad for requiring Moderation as per the terms of the Code of Conduct...

Please keep it clean, Gents.

[Kastergir]

Couldnt disagree more. Its true, you see a lot of 4 man and 8 man groups ECM stomping everything, with the other side simply holding close to no chance to win. But thats not an ECM Problem. Its a Problem of how those players choose to use it. I definitely know how youre feeling, since I pilot and CMD-2D in PUG games a lot. I also pilot it in 4 man and 8 man groups. And yeah youre right, it looks like the group with more ECMs is the winner.

Then on the other hand...I find it an acceptable challenge to work with what I have to try and overcome what they throw at me...I dont really mind loosing a lot of matches since the last patch, or dieing a lot of miserable pixeldeaths. As long as I learn something out of each and every match I am playing...

Lessons learned so far: do not rely on ECM...it may be countered. Do not rely on lockon weapons...they may be rendered useless. Do not rely on radar...rely on eyes, ears, thermal and night vision more. Pay more attention to surrounding terrain, possible fire lanes, escape routes etc. Increase situational awareness.

All in all, for me, ECM as it has been implemented has upped the challenge much, and I appreciate that. Simply made MW:O a MUCH more interesting game.

Edited by Kastergir, 05 December 2012 - 07:16 PM.

[Vernius Ix]

Prosperity Park, on 05 December 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

2-out-of-three is, indeed, bad for requiring Moderation as per the terms of the Code of Conduct...

Please keep it clean, Gents.

[REDACTED]
What have I learned about ECM so far running 8 man groups? You need 6 to be competitive

Edited by miSs, 06 December 2012 - 08:23 AM.
insults

[Codejack]

Bluten, on 05 December 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

I tried to tell them this thing was stupid before it was even released. They need to either significantly nerf this thing or buff the unholy [REDACTED] out of the BAP.

I think that BAP should allow lock-on within the ECM bubble. I would say NARC, but that doesn't make sense because it doesn't help streaks or SRMs, and if it did, would allow an A1 Catapult to carry 5xSSRM2 and 1xNARC for truly evil combo. Let NARC allow detection and fast lock on from outside the bubble, so scouts can shoot the NARC, then leave while the LRMs home in. TAG just needs to last longer.

[Codejack]

Kastergir, on 05 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Lessons learned so far: do not rely on ECM...it may be countered. Do not rely on lockon weapons...they may be rendered useless. Do not rely on radar...rely on eyes, ears, thermal and night vision more. Pay more attention to surrounding terrain, possible fire lanes, escape routes etc. Increase situational awareness.

Yea, no. Fast light are basically immune to direct fire weapons unless you outnumber them, and if you're in a PUG, that's unlikely to happen.

Kastergir, on 05 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

All in all, for me, ECM as it has been implemented has upped the challenge much, and I appreciate that. Simply made MW:O a MUCH more interesting game.

How? Every game is exactly the same, now. Everyone rushes the enemy base under ECM cover, and if you run into each other, it turns into a furball where the team with the most ECM almost invariably wins, which, again, if you are in a PUG...

I'm sorry, for me, it has killed the game.

[Horrorizer]

i understand his feeling, there is something wrong but is not the ECM, are the counter measures for it.
im not talking about another ECM
im talking about the TAG his range sucks, when you are at 450m you are clearly visible by any blind guy,
TAG need a buff to 900m, and the laser is too visible, if you was well hidden before use it, then not anymore, in 10 seconds you will get a swarm on you, so the another buff for tag is to reduce his lights 75%,

if PGI do those 2 things the we will have a nice balanced ECM

[Codejack]

Horrorizer, on 05 December 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

i understand his feeling, there is something wrong but is not the ECM, are the counter measures for it.
im not talking about another ECM
im talking about the TAG his range sucks, when you are at 450m you are clearly visible by any blind guy,
TAG need a buff to 900m, and the laser is too visible, if you was well hidden before use it, then not anymore, in 10 seconds you will get a swarm on you, so the another buff for tag is to reduce his lights 75%,

if PGI do those 2 things the we will have a nice balanced ECM

TAG isn't enough; you can't keep a fast light painted at distance, not for long enough to lock, fire, and have the missiles actually hit, and when they get close, which they will because they are fast, TAG doesn't work at all.

[Mancu]

TAG is a failed system.

[StraferX]

My experiance tonight has been that 90% of the matches are 1 side has several ECM and the other side has zero ECM.
ECM needs to be adjusted with a counter balance ie: BAP and the match drops need to be equaled.

[Kousagi]

The thing you forget is that battletech has always tried to stay pseudo realistic. ECM is a current device that is in use by military units today. They are not called ECM, but it is a electronic warfare suite. The US has the Duke/Guardian systems there is also a few other ones, but too many to name them all. So the way current ECM works does in ways mimic how Jamming systems really do work. Though its not going to be following them strictly due to certain things they are not going to bother programing in, like signal strength requirements for a signal to be jammed.

So, If you think about it, the reason narcs are jammed is cause they are a RF signal. same seems to be true with LRM/Streak guidance systems, due to how they behave. TAG how ever will work, since it is just a laser, no RF to it. BAP, would not be able to cut through a strong enough ECM either, and even if it could the RF signal would bounce back all mauled up due to the white noise from the ECM, so you would not get a clean signal back, which would mean the mechs systems could not ID it as a target or not, and since we don't have radar ghosts they can't display it like that.

In terms of balance I think they are also fine, You don't need a lock to fire your weapons at the bad guy. This was seen even in early beta's as ya just flip on heat vision and blast people as they walk out of their spawn while walking out of your spawn.

Edited by Kousagi, 05 December 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[Vernius Ix]

BAP needs to act at a one mech counter to ECM. A mech with BAP should be able to see enemy and friendlies on the map, lock up for missles at 400m.

NARC needs to last 60 to 90 seconds and make the mech it is attached to able to be locked and fired upon from normal distances. I would also have it act as a active radar source for 10 seconds after being attached, showing detailed info on all the mechs around it to the commander on your team. Just the info for the mechs around, nothing else.

TAG is just useless since it is visible. Make it invisible and increase its range to 650m.

Hmm will have to think on this more.

Edited by Vernius Ix, 05 December 2012 - 07:44 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Prosperity Park, on 05 December 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

2-out-of-three is, indeed, bad for requiring Moderation as per the terms of the Code of Conduct...

Please keep it clean, Gents.

I didn't bypass the censor or even insult anyone that time. What was the problem?

Vernius Ix, on 05 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

BAP needs to act at a one mech counter to ECM.

We've been trying to tell them this but they're got their fingers firmly plugged into their ears and are shouting "LA LA LA LA LA NOT LISTENING ECM IS FINE LA LA LA DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR MISSILE LOCKS LA LA LA".

[Codejack]

Kousagi, on 05 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

The thing you forget is that battletech has always tried to stay pseudo realistic. ECM is a current device that is in use by military units today. They are not called ECM, but it is a electronic warfare suite. The US has the Duke/Guardian systems there is also a few other ones, but too many to name them all. So the way current ECM works does in ways mimic how Jamming systems really do work. Though its not going to be following them strictly due to certain things they are not going to bother programing in, like signal strength requirements for a signal to be jammed.

...O-kaaay, but then you have the problem of the jamming emitter lighting up every screen for miles around like a christmas tree. Ever hear of radar-guided missiles? That's why they can turn ECM off.

Kousagi, on 05 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

So, If you think about it, the reason narcs are jammed is cause they are a RF signal. same seems to be true with LRM/Streak guidance systems, due to how they behave. TAG how ever will work, since it is just a laser, no RF to it. BAP, would not be able to cut through a strong enough ECM either, and even if it could the RF signal would bounce back all mauled up due to the white noise from the ECM, so you would not get a clean signal back, which would mean the mechs systems could not ID it as a target or not, and since we don't have radar ghosts they can't display it like that.

Well, first of all, the NARC should be able to outpower the ECM emitter since it only has to broadcast on one frequency, while the ECM has to jam broad spectrum, so the NARC should be much easier to home in on. Same with BAP; close up, it should be able to "burn" through the ECM by focusing power on a single frequencty. TAG should actually be easier to counter since it will rely on an optical sensor to track the laser, which is susceptible to all sorts of interference.

Kousagi, on 05 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

In terms of balance I think they are also fine, You don't need a lock to fire your weapons at the bad guy. This was seen even in early beta's as ya just flip on heat vision and blast people as they walk out of their spawn while walking out of your spawn.

Yea, that's not the problem; the problem is that, due to netcode/lag issues, close, fast lights that are all but immune to unguided weaponry (please see my posted video of a Jenner coming out of 4 6xSRM6 volleys without a scratch). My Commando 2D is a 1-on-1 match for pretty much anything in the game; a streak-loaded Atlas DDC is about the only thing I can think of that I don't want to tangle with. THAT'S NOT BALANCED!

[JimSuperBleeder]

Pugging is rough now I will admit.

This ECM has changed this into BasecampWarrior: Online.

---

It's to be expected though when a new game altering item is introduced; it will most certainly be abused.

[Sevaradan]

ecm is fine.

[Kousagi]

Codejack, on 05 December 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

...O-kaaay, but then you have the problem of the jamming emitter lighting up every screen for miles around like a christmas tree. Ever hear of radar-guided missiles? That's why they can turn ECM off.

Well, first of all, the NARC should be able to outpower the ECM emitter since it only has to broadcast on one frequency, while the ECM has to jam broad spectrum, so the NARC should be much easier to home in on. Same with BAP; close up, it should be able to "burn" through the ECM by focusing power on a single frequencty. TAG should actually be easier to counter since it will rely on an optical sensor to track the laser, which is susceptible to all sorts of interference.

Yea, that's not the problem; the problem is that, due to netcode/lag issues, close, fast lights that are all but immune to unguided weaponry (please see my posted video of a Jenner coming out of 4 6xSRM6 volleys without a scratch). My Commando 2D is a 1-on-1 match for pretty much anything in the game; a streak-loaded Atlas DDC is about the only thing I can think of that I don't want to tangle with. THAT'S NOT BALANCED!

Yep, heard of Radar guided missiles, but how do you think the system with the radar is guiding that missile in? RF... which is what ECM jams. Same reason ya can't fly cam guided missiles in to a jammers range without losing signal.

Yes, board vs single would in fact allow some systems to cut through the jamming, At least to a point. It will lose strength trying to make it out of the heart of the jamming and theres a lot to take in to account with signal strength and all that fun stuff. Which is why I said its only mimicking, and would not strictly follow, cause they would have a hell of a time trying to code in all the systems to handle how real jamming works. Plus we have no idea what kind of power anything is putting out.

Plus I would think It would not be too hard for people to figure out what freq people were using for their systems, since a lot of stuff in battle tech is made from out of house factorys. Since everything pretty much has to work together so there could be a stranded freq range to use for certain things, other wise ya could get some nasty interference.

Edited by Kousagi, 05 December 2012 - 08:08 PM.

[JimSuperBleeder]

Sevaradan, on 05 December 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

ecm is fine.

I agree for the most part. Like I said it is just being abused at the moment, I'm sure premades are handling it a little better than pugs are.