29 replies to this topic

[verybad]

There's a missile variation for LRMs in battletech called Antiradiation missiles. They get a bonus to hit and tighter missile clusters versus mechs with advanced EW suites like BAP and ECM.

If ECM is going to be as powerful as it is, shouldn't there be solutions like this?

I would say" Give make it normal ECM/BAP (not that BAP needs a counter, but what ever) tracking, let it fire direct versus ECM/BAP without a TAG, and let it get almost instantaneous locks versus indirect, tagged targets.

However as it's designed to go after ECM/BAP targets, give it a slow lockon (half normal speed) versus targets that don't have those suites.

Separately, and this is not a Battletech rule.

How about giving NARC pods the properties of a friendly ECM pod? This would be whether or not they even hit a mech target (ie you could fire them at a building and they'd provide a friendly ECM bubble for 20 seconds) Fire them at an enemy with ECM and it automatically turns to ECCM. Hit friendly target and it turns to friendly ECM, if that targer already has ECM, then it turns to ECCM.

In additions the NARC pod still prodivde the TAG solution for twenty seconds.

Whoa, suddly you've got a useful NARC pod, open up a bunch of strategies, allow larger mechs without ECM a solution to protect themselves at the cost of higher tonnage.

So?

Edited by verybad, 12 December 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[Koreanese]

You [REDACTED] just cant get enough cant you. Do you want a 1 shot kill guided nuke missile while at it? Anti radiation missiles. Hah. Lasers and ballistics works just fine againt those ecm pests

Edited by Stickjock, 12 December 2012 - 01:13 PM.
inappropriate language removed

[Roland]

This is actually an interesting idea.

I wouldn't enable it to target ECM shielded mechs, but against tagged ECM mechs? Yeah, I could see having anti-rad LRM's that have extremely tight tracking that really punishes the ECM mechs. Make them weaker against non-ECM mechs, and the balance could be fairly well done.

Ultimately though, once the knockdown is put back into the game, and the lighter ECM mechs can't depend on a lagshield to protect them from direct fire weaponry, the balance of the game is going to shift dramatically.

[verybad]

Koreanese, on 12 December 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

You [REDACTED] just cant get enough cant you. Do you want a 1 shot kill guided nuke missile while at it? Anti radiation missiles. Hah. Lasers and ballistics works just fine againt those ecm pests

Maybe it's just a bad dayfor you, but you need to learn some manners nobody's impressed with you acting like that on a forum.

For one, I've never used LRMs in this game, not a single time. For two, ECM has made them practically useless. All I want is a balanced game.

IN any case, learn some manners

Edited by Stickjock, 12 December 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[Codejack]

Koreanese, on 12 December 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

You [REDACTED] just cant get enough cant you. Do you want a 1 shot kill guided nuke missile while at it? Anti radiation missiles. Hah. Lasers and ballistics works just fine againt those ecm pests

Let's see here, two weapon systems that were not unbalancing the game have been completely eliminated by a piece of equipment that clearly is.

Or, please explain to me what game you were in that started with someone saying, "Uh-oh, we don't have any streakcats, might as well just power down now."

OP, ARM might work if it could just be a different ammo for the same weapons, but I'm not sure that that is going to be implemented.

ECM is clearly out of proportion, but whether it needs to just be scaled down (400m detection and only slow down lock-on, not prevent) or given proper counters (BAP & NARC allowing lock-on, etc) doesn't really matter to me.

Edited by Stickjock, 12 December 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Played TT for 25 years and I have no idea what he's talking about....

SO I am looking it up!

And I found this in a Forum:

Quote

[Q]Tactical Operations states that anti-radiation missiles receive their bonus if the target has one or more ton of communications equipment. TechManual states that BattleMechs and combat vehicles have the equivalent of one ton of communications equipment as part of their standard cockpit/controls package. This would suggest that the anti-radiation missile bonus is in effect when the missiles are used against any BattleMech or combat vehicle.

[A]However, I have a feeling that the spirit, if not the wording, of the rules is intended for the bonus to be applied to any unit with additional communications equipment installed on top of the free ton. So it would work against a Swift Wind or a Mobile Headquarters but not say, a Vedette. Is that the case?

My apologies for doubting your statement sir. There aren't many times that I don't know my CBT rules!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 December 2012 - 10:49 AM.

[Okie135]

Dang! I would absolutely LOVE to play a Wild Weasel. Give me HARMs and a scout 'mech.. I'll bring back the severed heads of the ECM 'mechs.

[Socket7]

Codejack, on 12 December 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Let's see here, two weapon systems that were not unbalancing the game have been completely eliminated by a piece of equipment that clearly is.

What weapons systems are those? I see LRM's used regularly in Pug games in concert with TAG, and TAG range hasn't even been boosted yet. Furthermore, LRM's are still very handy for punishing anyone who happens to stray outside the bubble. As for Streaks, they are sill useful for people who are outside the ECM bubble, or ECM mechs that are in ECCM mode.

Here is the best way to handle ECM. TAG the ECM boat. Pound with LRMS and other long range weapons until it dies. The rest of the lance is now unprotected by ECM. This method doesn't even need you to have ECM on your team.

Edited by Socket7, 12 December 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Bagheera]

Really, just improve the lifespan of a narc beacon by making it damaged based instead of a timer (that way heavy sustained missile fire on the NARC'd mech destroys the beacon faster, reducing missile spam durations) - ie, give it a health and have it take a portion of the damage applied to the mech section where it hit.

Then add to its properties an "ECM disrupt" on either the effected mech only, or in a very small (90m or less) radius.

ECM is fine, actually very cool. It just needs an additional counter or three. Like Narc, Satellite Sweep, and UAV drone. Those last two are coming later, but the first just needs to be changed.

NARC is nigh-upon useless in its current form anyway. Give it a purpose for existence.

Codejack, on 12 December 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Let's see here, two weapon systems that were not unbalancing the game have been completely eliminated by a piece of equipment that clearly is.

Poppycock. LRMs are still getting used just fine, just running half a team of LRM boats is no longer viable. Oh darn. And streaks? Really? Not unbalanced? Come-on guy. ECM may have some issues, and definitely needs some number massaging, more hard counters, and a wider array of chassis selection - all of which can be easily addressed.

But to say streaks were balanced? HA! I rarely make base accusations on forums, but you sound like an upset A1 pilot who can't figure out how to boat artemis SRMs.

Edited by Bagheera, 12 December 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[verybad]

I think using NARC as a Wild Weasel anti-ECM system would make it a lot of fun (and give it a use)

It weighs as much as ECM and BAP combined AND it uses ammo (Heavier than almost any ammo out their I might add), AND it's harder to use than TAG., AND it causes heat to use.

Give it a reason for being in the game other than filling out the lists.

It would be a lot of fun getting in to groups in an ECM bubble and killing that bubble for a short time with a NARC pod.

Bagheera, on 12 December 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

ECM is fine, actually very cool. It just needs an additional counter or three. Like Narc, Satellite Sweep, and UAV drone. Those last two are coming later, but the first just needs to be changed.

NARC is nigh-upon useless in its current form anyway. Give it a purpose for existence.

Completely agree with this. I want ECM in the game, I just want more and better counters. Making NARCs useful as a bonus would be great also.

Edited by verybad, 12 December 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[Roland]

Yes, two changes to NARC would be greatly beneficial to the overall game, I think:

1) A NARC should stick to the specific panel that it hits, draw missiles to that location, and continue to operate until all of the armor on that location is destroyed.

2) NARC beacons should operate inside ECM fields.

Make those two changes, and suddenly folks will actually USE the weapon.. as it stands, it's a terrible garbage weapon which never justifies its weight.

[Taryys]

Roland, on 12 December 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Yes, two changes to NARC would be greatly beneficial to the overall game, I think:

1) A NARC should stick to the specific panel that it hits, draw missiles to that location, and continue to operate until all of the armor on that location is destroyed.

2) NARC beacons should operate inside ECM fields.

Make those two changes, and suddenly folks will actually USE the weapon.. as it stands, it's a terrible garbage weapon which never justifies its weight.

This I like.

and may have me thinking about putting this on my Raven again.

[Col Forbin]

verybad, on 12 December 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

There's a missile variation for LRMs in battletech called Antiradiation missiles. They get a bonus to hit and tighter missile clusters versus mechs with advanced EW suites like BAP and ECM.

If ECM is going to be as powerful as it is, shouldn't there be solutions like this?

I would say" Give make it normal ECM/BAP (not that BAP needs a counter, but what ever) tracking, let it fire direct versus ECM/BAP without a TAG, and let it get almost instantaneous locks versus indirect, tagged targets.

However as it's designed to go after ECM/BAP targets, give it a slow lockon (half normal speed) versus targets that don't have those suites.

Separately, and this is not a Battletech rule.

How about giving NARC pods the properties of a friendly ECM pod? This would be whether or not they even hit a mech target (ie you could fire them at a building and they'd provide a friendly ECM bubble for 20 seconds) Fire them at an enemy with ECM and it automatically turns to ECCM. Hit friendly target and it turns to friendly ECM, if that targer already has ECM, then it turns to ECCM.

In additions the NARC pod still prodivde the TAG solution for twenty seconds.

Whoa, suddly you've got a useful NARC pod, open up a bunch of strategies, allow larger mechs without ECM a solution to protect themselves at the cost of higher tonnage.

So?

I like this idea... I mean, the real life military uses ARM all the time. Maybe you could balance them by making it so you could only carry ARM or regular LRM. ARM would only lock-on to ECM carriers...

[Khanahar]

In MW4 vanilla the main disadvantage of ECM was that LRMs lock on faster if you're mounting it.

Not sure that I'd replicate that here, but given that we're way outside of canon with the ECM, it's not inconceivable. Could be kinda interesting; ECM helps out your team, but you become more vulnerable to SSRMs and LRMs. Makes the unit vulnerable but powerful, unsuited to PUGs but useful to coordinated teams who can protect their ECMer. Would also clarify the roles of scout-hunters.

[AlanEsh]

I so rarely got killed by LRM rains of death before ECM... I don't get why so many people (like Korea here) whine about them. They weren't OP at all -- now they're not worth carrying.

LRMs are a canon weapon system carried by a LARGE percentage of the mech chassis/variants in Battletech. Totally neutering them is a disservice to the franchise.

[Rhent]

Khanahar, on 12 December 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

In MW4 vanilla the main disadvantage of ECM was that LRMs lock on faster if you're mounting it.

Not sure that I'd replicate that here, but given that we're way outside of canon with the ECM, it's not inconceivable. Could be kinda interesting; ECM helps out your team, but you become more vulnerable to SSRMs and LRMs. Makes the unit vulnerable but powerful, unsuited to PUGs but useful to coordinated teams who can protect their ECMer. Would also clarify the roles of scout-hunters.

Its a great idea but the lead game designer doesn't understand risk/reward concepts, he only understands how to release something too powerful and then gradually nerf it to a reasonable state.

Frankly, I'm sick of paying for the privilege of giving free Beta testing to a company that won't pay for a TEST Server to try out the lead game designers "Whacky" ideas. Frankly, I half expect a nuclear suicide module to be put in for lights so that when they die they do an AE 200 damage. I mean wouldn't that make everyone want to play lights even more! I swear to God the game designers ideas come from BFBC and COD rather than Battletech.

[Taryys]

Rhent, on 12 December 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

Frankly, I'm sick of paying for the privilege of giving free Beta testing to a company that won't pay for a TEST Server to try out the lead game designers "Whacky" ideas.

The devs are working on a getting together public test server.

[Jakob Knight]

But...but...that could be unbalanced against ECM mechs! How dare you make a system that makes another one mechs rely on to be effective all but a liability to any team! We -can't- have that!

Oh, wait. That's already been done, hasn't it?

[Strum Wealh]

verybad, on 12 December 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

There's a missile variation for LRMs in battletech called Antiradiation missiles. They get a bonus to hit and tighter missile clusters versus mechs with advanced EW suites like BAP and ECM.

If ECM is going to be as powerful as it is, shouldn't there be solutions like this?

I would say" Give make it normal ECM/BAP (not that BAP needs a counter, but what ever) tracking, let it fire direct versus ECM/BAP without a TAG, and let it get almost instantaneous locks versus indirect, tagged targets.

However as it's designed to go after ECM/BAP targets, give it a slow lockon (half normal speed) versus targets that don't have those suites.

Separately, and this is not a Battletech rule.

How about giving NARC pods the properties of a friendly ECM pod? This would be whether or not they even hit a mech target (ie you could fire them at a building and they'd provide a friendly ECM bubble for 20 seconds) Fire them at an enemy with ECM and it automatically turns to ECCM. Hit friendly target and it turns to friendly ECM, if that targer already has ECM, then it turns to ECCM.

In additions the NARC pod still prodivde the TAG solution for twenty seconds.

Whoa, suddly you've got a useful NARC pod, open up a bunch of strategies, allow larger mechs without ECM a solution to protect themselves at the cost of higher tonnage.

So?

A minor nit-pick, in that "proper" ARMs are apparently LosTech (on both sides of the tech tree, no less!), and aren't available to the IS until the FWL re-invents them in 3065 (and Clan Smoke Jaguar re-inventing them for the Clans in 3055).

As more timeline-appropriate alternatives, there are "Listen-Kill Missiles" (that essentially do the same thing, albeit not as well as the "proper" ARMs), "Magnetic-Pulse Warheads" (which could be made to disrupt/impair the functioning of ECM, BAP, Artemis, and other EW enhancements), and "Dead-Fire Missiles" (which sacrifice the guidance system (no tracking at all, but nothing for ECM to affect) for the ability to carry a larger warhead (more damage per missile))...?

[Imagine Dragons]

ARLRMs probably should be an all or nothing deal. IE you can't mix'n'match normal LRMs with Anti-Radiation LRMs.

However, ARLRMs should be auto seeking ECM mechs within their range, with one caveat.

ARLRMs can only track ECM mechs in Disrupt mode. They cannot track Counter mode, however the tracking resumes if Disrupt is toggled back. That being said, ARLRMs don't alert the target like LRMs currently do, so no "Incoming Missiles" warning because ARLRMs are passive homing...

ARLRMs can mimic the dumb fire functionality that LRMs currently have.

This provides a nice parity where bringing ARLRMs provides a counter to ECM setups, but not something you want to bring a A1 LRM boat full of ARLRMs... Well unless you really hate ECM mechs in general...

I can see where ARLRMs can really shine in mechs like the Dragon...