383 replies to this topic

[Scarlett Avignon]

Lonestar1771, on 12 December 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Ffs IT IS NOT A DEDICATED INFANTRY WEAPON. Get it through your thick and empty skull already!

"The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers."

Well, you need to tell that to the guys who designed Battletech.

Pyrrho, on 12 December 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

OP may subscribe to the idea that saying things over and over again makes them more truthful.

Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound how how right you want to be.

Lonestar1771, on 12 December 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Ffs

When abbreviating, you capitalize all the letters, as they each represent the first letter of an individual word.



P.S.- THAT is trolling.

Edited by Franklen Avignon, 12 December 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[Lonestar1771]

Franklen Avignon, on 12 December 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

"The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers."

Well, you need to tell that to the guys who designed Battletech.



Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound how how right you want to be.



When abbreviating, you capitalize all the letter, as they represent the first letter of an individual word.



P.S.- THAT is trolling.

So where does it say "dedicated anti-infantry weapon"? Sure it says "it kills people really well" but it never said "dedicated".

[J4ckInthebox]

well, have fun with you pea-shooters then.

Would you like some insanely unbalanced (but canon) clan tech with that?

[Rofl]

Franklen Avignon, on 12 December 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

And I have no problem with them buffing the damage of the weapon. I just think it flies in the face of all logic to give them some type of crit bonus over other weapons.

As far as the weapon's weight goes, remember that the weight of a gun includes mounting equipment, servo controls for targeting control, and ammunition feed systems. Most of the weapons in BT likely weigh far less by themselves. No, it's not an AK-47. In most BT lore, they state that most mech-mounted MG's are between .50 in to 20mm in caliber.

Someone mentioned the A-10's primary weapon, and you said it'd probably way less.
then you mention weight of guns, etc.

FYI:
GAU-8
Weight: 619.5 lb (281 kg), and that is with it's static mounting

So... the BT machine gun is actually much larger than the gun you state is way too overpowered for the machine gun in this game... Logic has failed you.

[Pyrrho]

Franklen Avignon, on 12 December 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

"The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers."

Well, you need to tell that to the guys who designed Battletech.

Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound how how right you want to be.

I guess quintessential mean dedicated now. If we are going to bandy definitions:

ded·i·cat·ed

/ˈdediˌkātid/
Adjective

• (of a person) Devoted to a task or purpose; having single-minded loyalty or integrity: "dedicated doctors".
  
• (of a thing) Exclusively allocated to or intended for a particular service or purpose.

quin·tes·sen·tial

/ˌkwintəˈsenCHəl/
Adjective
Representing the most perfect or typical example of a quality or class: "the quintessential tough guy".

Now, to bring a dash of logic to bear:

Does a thing that represents the most perfect or typical example of a quality or class equate to being exclusively allocated to or intended for a particular service or purpose?

Sure, I can see how all squares are rectangles. But, all rectangles are NOT squares. Just because something is effective at doing a thing doesn't mean it is dedicated to that purpose. Case in point... there are no infantry units (right now) in MWO... to say that the MG is dedicated to fighting them equates to saying that they shouldn't be in the game. This was my first reply to you in this thread (without all of the self-serving yappity yap about feeling big and strong and correct on the internet).

[Scarlett Avignon]

Lonestar1771, on 12 December 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

So where does it say "dedicated anti-infantry weapon"? Sure it says "it kills people really well" but it never said "dedicated".

Quintessential

Dedicated

If you cannot connect the concepts of being perfect for a given job and being specifically designed to do it, I'm not sure I can help you.

[Red squirrel]

Rofl, on 12 December 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Someone mentioned the A-10's primary weapon, and you said it'd probably way less.
then you mention weight of guns, etc.

FYI:
GAU-8
Weight: 619.5 lb (281 kg), and that is with it's static mounting

So... the BT machine gun is actually much larger than the gun you state is way too overpowered for the machine gun in this game... Logic has failed you.

Ouch....from now on I will always think of the MG beeing a dual GAU-8.
Need to leave this thread to get into my CDA-3C.....

[Tickdoff Tank]

Red squirrel, on 12 December 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

You should definitely do some research on:

1) Damage capacity of machine guns in real life

2) Machine guns in BT lore

before posting such nonesense



Edit: And as posted before .... it makes no sense to include useless weapons into the game.
If you object I want my pillow thrower cannon!

I do not want to object, but if that is the only way to get a PTC (pillow Thrower Cannon) then I must object most strongly!! OBJECT OBJECT OBJECT.

Now, where is my PTC?

[Lonestar1771]

Franklen Avignon, on 12 December 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Quintessential

Dedicated

If you cannot connect the concepts of being perfect for a given job and being specifically designed to do it, I'm not sure I can help you.

You are either unbelievably stupid or a very good troll.... I'm going with the former.

[Zyzyx66]

I think it makes perfect sense that machine guns have a better crit chance against an armour-stripped 'mech. Fire that many half-kilo slugs into the internals of a 'mech, and some of them are bound to hit important bits. Possibly even more likely than an AC - the explosion would be mitigated somewhat by the relatively hollow nature of the internal components.

It's not really an argument given the abstracted nature of the weightings, but a half-ton machine gun is also a VERY big machine gun (esp. if it uses the same lightweight material as the rest of the 'mech). There's very little reason it wouldn't be able to penetrate a 'mech's armour if it fired solid slugs - especially since 'mech armour is ablative, which would be less effective against a solid penetrating round than an explosive one.

If you're inclined to disregard the last para due to the abstraction inherent in a stompy 'mech game, it really just means there's more reason to buff it if it has so little effect.

Edited by Zyzyx66, 12 December 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[Pyrrho]

I find it only mildly amusing that, like most pointless arguments, both sides can use the same facts to bolster their positions. As a skeptic, this just means that the topic isn't really worth bothering over.

[Rofl]

Red squirrel, on 12 December 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Ouch....from now on I will always think of the MG beeing a dual GAU-8.
Need to leave this thread to get into my CDA-3C.....

More on the GAU-8:

"[color=#000000]Designed specifically for the [/color]anti-tank[color=#000000] role, the Avenger delivers very powerful rounds at a high rate of fire."

So.... what? Infantry what? Surely MOST machine guns are anti-infantry in battletech, but not all of them. It is one of the oldest weapon designs mechs can use, with hundreds of manufacturers making many different versions.[/color]

[Deadoon]

Franklen Avignon, on 12 December 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Do you think that ammunition drums and feeds weigh nothing?

Actually in battletech, they don't you are just closing off an area and filling it with ammo and letting the integral ammo transport system of your mech collect it. Using advanced construction options, you can make ammo bins of a single round, but will still take up a slot. So say you want a quarter ton of ap, tracer, standard and precision ammo for an ac, this will weigha total of 1 ton but use 4 slots. You only can fit however 1 ton of ammo per slot maximum.

Edited by Deadoon, 12 December 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Rofl, on 12 December 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Someone mentioned the A-10's primary weapon, and you said it'd probably way less.
then you mention weight of guns, etc.

FYI:
GAU-8
Weight: 619.5 lb (281 kg), and that is with it's static mounting

So... the BT machine gun is actually much larger than the gun you state is way too overpowered for the machine gun in this game... Logic has failed you.

Oh, and the A-10's gun has an effective range of 90m, right?

Wait. Maybe BT weapons are massively inefficient compared to our own and don't perform as well.

[Red squirrel]

Tickdoff Tank, on 12 December 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

I do not want to object, but if that is the only way to get a PTC (pillow Thrower Cannon) then I must object most strongly!! OBJECT OBJECT OBJECT.

Now, where is my PTC?

Wonder how much exess heat the PTC produces?

[Thorqemada]

I dont know what they mean with a "slight" buff - the MG needs a massive buff to come even near a Small Laser.
The Weapon is in the game, now make something useful out of it!

[Scarlett Avignon]

Lonestar1771, on 12 December 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

You are either unbelievably stupid or a very good troll.... I'm going with the former.

Well, your arguments seem to be hinged on word-play. Because, if you go back to every one of my posts where I use the word "dedicated" to describe machine guns and replace it with the word "quintessential" it radically alters the meaning on my posts and makes them completely invalid.

Or it doesn't. Which would mean that you might be splitting hairs...

[Rofl]

Franklen Avignon, on 12 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

Oh, and the A-10's gun has an effective range of 90m, right?

Wait. Maybe BT weapons are massively inefficient compared to our own and don't perform as well.

That should be obvious. Compare any modern weapon system with it's BT equivalent.

EDIT:

Just so we're clear:
Basing the MG off TT is not going to work.
Basing the MG off real life is not going to work. (both extremes of 'real life' examples end up with silly results)

How about we base the MG off balancing around the other weapons?!?!?!

Edited by Rofl, 12 December 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Deadoon, on 12 December 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Actually in battletech, they don't you are just closing off an area and filling it with ammo and letting the integral ammo transport system of your mech collect it. Using advanced construction options, you can make ammo bins of a single round, but will still take up a slot. So say you want a quarter ton of ap, tracer, standard and precision ammo for an ac, this will weigha total of 1 ton but use 4 slots. You only can fit however 1 ton of ammo per slot maximum.

Do you really think they just seal off a section and pour bullets/missile in?

What about energy-based mechs? Do they have "integral ammo transport system[s]" that transport no ammo, or do those just have no weight?

[stjobe]

Rofl, on 12 December 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Someone mentioned the A-10's primary weapon, and you said it'd probably way less.
then you mention weight of guns, etc.

FYI:
GAU-8
Weight: 619.5 lb (281 kg), and that is with it's static mounting

So... the BT machine gun is actually much larger than the gun you state is way too overpowered for the machine gun in this game... Logic has failed you.

Wikipedia:
"The GAU-8 itself weighs 620 pounds (280 kg), but the complete weapon, with feed system and drum, weighs 4,029 pounds (1,828 kg) with a maximum ammunition load"

Pretty close to a 0.5 ton MG with 1 ton of ammo, isn't it?

Wikipedia again:
"The standard ammunition mixture for anti-armor use is a four-to-one mix of PGU-14/B Armor Piercing Incendiary, with a projectile weight of about 15.0 oz (425 grams or 6,560 grains) and PGU-13/B High Explosive Incendiary (HEI) rounds, with a projectile weight of about 12.7 oz (360 grams or 5,556.25 grains)."

So.. that would be about 2000 rounds per ton then?