64 replies to this topic

[Rhent]

Dakkath, on 12 December 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

I think the ordinance velocity speeds are definitely needed. When was the last time you fired a gun and saw the bullet? You typically don't ever.

And in previous versions of MW, the PPC has always been different in each. It's my understanding by reading info on Sarna and BT books that the PPC moves like a "bolt of lightning", so to speak. I am looking forward to the speed changes, it will definitely make the weapons more 'realistic' imo.

ORDINANCE is a law. ORDNANCE is ammunition.

[CocoaJin]

High velocities help to make up for the crap-tastic fire delay. The fire delay is imposing a significant and unnecessary level of difficulty in using ballistics...especially compared to lasers. Higher velocities is a half descent compromise as long as the devs feel they have to keep the delay in game.

[New Breed]

I can't believe you said PPC and SPAM.

my RS with almost 40 heat sinks still has heat issues with 4 ppcs.


40 tons of heat sinks.

[Khobai]

PPC velocity was never the reason PPCs sucked. It was ALWAYS their heat. They just don't do enough damage to justify the massive amount of heat buildup.

[mekabuser]

The firing delay is another whole ball of wax.. One that I particularly abhor.
Ive tried very few ppc, erppc builds, The ones i used in the past were not user friendly, I agree, but, unless there is something I dont realize about the trial awesome, that thing actually can keep up a fairly good rate of fire provided you separate the three erppc into three groups.
You can easily get off 6 shots in fairly quick succession and not worry about overheating.
It also cools down quite well.
That being said, you can pepper the enemy over and over again, in a trial mech.
maybe its loaded to the gills with HS cause its got the xl engine... But the fact remains, emp? lower heat, higher speed to target, yeah i mean it, can easily see spam .
I guess its just my opinion, I have no desire to see weapon speeds increased. Hell its what makes the weapons unique.
well , we will see soon enough i guess
~S~ all.

[Corvus Antaka]

Point is that as a PPC user, I have 0 problems with the current travel time, and hitting CT's is very easy.

Now, PGI will make it easier.

This is good for me.

This does not mean it's a good decision.

[Havyek]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 12 December 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

. . .because then lasers will be even less useful than they are now.

Every time I see one of these posts, I LOL . . . . inside. LIS?

Lasers not useful, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Right. . . . I rarely see 4Ps running all medium lasers, or large/med combos, or Jenners with medium lasers, or Cicadas with small pulses, or Atlases with large lasers. . . .
In fact, I think the only time I see a PPC is when someone has spent all their money on a K2, or a trial Awesome 9M.

[Mavairo]

This still doesn't fix the heat issue of the PPC (the bigger issue).

But it's a start. Maybe people will actually take them somewhat seriously now.

This change to PPCs will not relegate lasers to happy useless land. Lasers are by far more heat efficient. The only laser it's going to relegate (further) into being stupid to field is the LPL (which no one fields anyway. Because it Sucks compared to LLs, MPLs, MLs, and SPLs). I would like to see the Minimum Range for PPCs to go the way of the dodo. There isn't one on the ERPPC (which is the alleged snipers PPC....) there definitely shouldn't be one on the shorter ranged ppc.

The Ballistic speed to Autocannons particularly the slow moving AC10 is going to be very handy. We'll see if it's enough. But I do find it kind of humorous that my 10mm pistol still has a higher ballistic velocity than the Buffed Ac10

Edited by Mavairo, 13 December 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[SkyCake]

AC's absolutely need any buff they can get right now! and velocity buff isnt bad at all... i would like to see them even faster though...

buffing ppc speed is meh... sure it will help, but ppc's seem fast enough to me already... we need heat to come down... 8 for ppc, 10-11 for ER... if cooldowns need to go up to compensate im all for that! and we need the minimum removed from regular ppc's... then people would use ppc's all day long...!

Edited by SkyCake, 13 December 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[3rdworld]

Why buff velocity?

The netcode is bad. So you bump up the velocity and it is easier to hit the invisible mech running in front of that jenner.

[Cerlin]

The reason is because they are both heavily gimped compared to insta hit lasers and high damage rockets. When you die to AC's it just means the guy is working hard to practice it. They are NOT easy to use.

[Corvus Antaka]

BDU Havoc, on 13 December 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Every time I see one of these posts, I LOL . . . . inside. LIS?

Lasers not useful, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Right. . . . I rarely see 4Ps running all medium lasers, or large/med combos, or Jenners with medium lasers, or Cicadas with small pulses, or Atlases with large lasers. . . .
In fact, I think the only time I see a PPC is when someone has spent all their money on a K2, or a trial Awesome 9M.

I own a 4P. I know lasers are useful. But upping the speed on the PPC and lowering heat will potentially bring ppc's to a hitscan point where lasers are much less useful. It will also make coring enemy mechs even easier than it already is, and with the loss of missiles due to ECM I guess if you are looking for core warrior maybe that's what will be up next.

Once again, my point for those of you to dense to understand is that PPC/Ballistics are perfectly fine now with their travel times, I personally have no issues leading or targetting with them, and a travel time buff potentially puts these guns into an easymode area I don't think they need to be in.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 13 December 2012 - 11:02 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Current Speeds.

AC5 - speed="900"
AC10 - speed="850"
AC/20 - speed="750"
PPC - speed="1200"
ERPPC - speed="1200"

Proposed changes Upcoming.

1) AutoCannon projectile speeds increasing.

AC/20 ~ 900m/s. (+/- 20%)
AC/LBX10 ~ 1100m/s. (+/- 29%)
AC/UAC/5 ~1300m/s. (+/- 43%)

2) PPC and ERPPC projectile speeds increasing to 2000m/s (+/- 65% increase)

I've also looked into doing some tweaks with the NARC and TAG systems. So far I'm planning on increasing the time that a NARC beacon lasts from 15 seconds to 20 seconds. TAG range will be boosted from 450m to 750m.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 13 December 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

How many of you have played around with the AC2? It travels fast but you still need to lead a target, not too much at short range, but there is a noticeable travel time for 1000m+. It is not a "hitscan" weapon. The proposed change to the PPC simply makes it move as fast as the AC2. That will not "fix" the PPC/ERPPC, but it is a good buff with little downside.

The speed increase on the ACs is also a good thing. You will still need to lead targets, none of them are becoming "hitscan" except at the shortest range (and they are almost that at 50m now), but the convergence issues make them difficult to use up close.

If it turns out that the projectile speeds break something, or make them too powerful then you can expect another change to them, but lets see what happens on Tuesday before we decide.

[Naeron66]

mekabuser, on 12 December 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

In what version of mechwarrior was the ppc anywhere near that velocity?

In the original version of Mechwarrior, the one that came in a book. PPCs are described as weapons whose projectile travels at a significant percentage of lightspeed. Its the computer games that have always been wrong. 2000m/s is still too slow to be honest but its an improvement, it should really be 20 km/s.

Faster PPCs will bring then from being UP to being closer to a balanced weapon in MWO. High heat and a slow projectile is the reason so many people don't use them.

You admitted they are UP yourself:

mekabuser, on 12 December 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

I have used the ppc and erppc, just because. I didnt care I wasnt doing didly for damage. A game without ppc's flying around just isnt mechwarrior to me.

Edited by Naeron66, 13 December 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[nemesis271989]

Elkarlo, on 12 December 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

The PPC should never have been the Nice slow Glowing Balls out of the MW2 Area.
It's a Particle Beam Weapon, this means ION's are accelrated by strong Magnetics traveling at a speed around 1/2 c or more.
This Opens a Plasma Channel through which the Energy from the Anode discharges...

To say it easily... the Electricity would be the think we see and the secondary effect, the ultrahot Plasmarized Ions hitting the Mech would be the Main impact of Damage. On a real Particle Projector Cannon.


To say it simple: Imagine a Railgun only that you remove the 100kg bullet and putt in a 5gramm Bullet and you transfer nearly the same Energy with it. So the speed needs to be 2000 times of the Gaus Cannon. The principles are the same: Mass is accelerated and the Energy hits MECH. Only that the Mass in a PPC is much smaller.

(In a Novel it is even discribed that they needed an extra "Mass" Modification for Vacuum fighting at the PPC's of a Mech, so that the PPC has something to accerlate)

I've never played Mechwarrior games before but following logic I can say THIS

PPC and Gauss rifle as I understand are electromagnetic/plasma/plasmoid weapons. Following simple logic (physics) this guns have to have the greatest projectile speed. If a projectile has a plasma around it then air friction must not affect that at all until it loses its plasma around it.
/thread

[Namwons]

i have no problems hitting moving targets (<80kph) with ERPPC/Gauss builds out to 1000m. im not very happy about the change as it will mess up my playstyle a bit. not something i cant adjust to, just something that was unnecessary.

[Coolant]

mekabuser, on 12 December 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

...We can all agree both the ac5 and 10 do their job...

SteelPaladin, on 12 December 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

No we really can't agree that the AC5 and 10 do their job. Let's look at a history of ballistic use in MWO...

Exactly, why do people always assume everyone agrees with them lol.

I will at least be trying PPC's probably the ER variety since I like to brawl, and I haven't used PPC's for a couple of months...also looking forward to the velocity increase to AC's, specifically the 10...

[Kommisar]

How about some perspective on ballistic velocities. I'm an engineer, I love numbers and math!!!

I'll repost the game values again. I am assuming these values are in meters per sec (m/s)

Gun Velocity (m/s) (New Velocity (m/s))
AC5 900 (1300)
AC10 850 (1100)
AC/20 750 (950)
PPC 1200 (2000)
ERPPC 1200 (2000)

Now for some real life cannons

M2 75mm - 588 - This is the 75mm, rifled gun which was mounted on the M3 Grant used by the Allied starting in 1941
This was an "early war" gun designed prior to the US entering (and fighting) Zee Germans. It was short
barreled and primarily designed to deliver HE rounds in infantry support roles. Did not fare well against the
top tier german armor like Tigers, Panthers, Panzer IVs

M3 75mm - 619 - The next generation of the M2 with a longer barrel. This is the gun mounted on the classic Sherman Tank.
Again, this was still designed as an HE gun, not a dedicated tank-killer. In fact, according to pre/early war
tactical doctrine, Shermans were not to engage enemy armor and instead support infantry.

M5 3inch - 792 - This was the US Army's early war "Tank Killer" gun. Used as an AT field gun and mounted on the M10 Tank
Destroyer. Not a stellar success against the bigger German tanks; and lost effectiveness past 500m

M1/2/3 90mm - 823 - This was the US Army's end war tank gun. It started as an AA weapon but, as the US continued to encounter
the German Big Cats, was pressed into AT roles. Eventually mounted on the M36 Tank Destoryer.

88mm Flak - 820 - The famous German 88.

21cm Kanone 38 - 905 - Big German gun. Not many produced



80cm K(E) - 820 - This puppy was mounted on rail cars! Think Long Tom... but bigger. Each shell weighed 7 tons.


Those were all 1940's era guns.

L7 105mm - 1490 - The British designed gun that became THE tank weapon for the west until the advent of the smoothbore
guns. Rifled, the actual muzzle velocity will vary depending on manufacturer and ammo type used.

Rheinmetall 120mm - 1580 to 1750 - The smoothbore we all know from the M1 Abrams.



So, it comes down to how far back did ballistic technology slip in the BT universe? I'm unable to account for any scaling differences between the game "meter" and a real life "meter" as I don't know how they set the scale. But, looking at the new values for the AC's, we will be getting cannons that are roughly equivalent to the 1950s and 1960's technology. Mind you, we don't know what the actual muzzle lengths on the mech mounted guns are. If they are shorter, you can justify slower velocities.

Physics and engineering aside; I think the AC's needed the boost in velocity. You will still have to lead your shots, but a bit less. And remember, these shots have bullet drop on them as well that us AC lovers have to account for. Makes them a bit more viable to use against all the lights that are swarming around the matches these days.

The PPC needed the velocity boost in a big way. This sucker needs to be worth the heat it builds up in a mech and this is one step towards balancing the books on it.

Edited by Kommisar, 13 December 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[mekabuser]

MaddMaxx, on 13 December 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Current Speeds.

AC5 - speed="900"
AC10 - speed="850"
AC/20 - speed="750"
PPC - speed="1200"
ERPPC - speed="1200"

Proposed changes Upcoming.

1) AutoCannon projectile speeds increasing.

AC/20 ~ 900m/s. (+/- 20%)
AC/LBX10 ~ 1100m/s. (+/- 29%)
AC/UAC/5 ~1300m/s. (+/- 43%)

2) PPC and ERPPC projectile speeds increasing to 2000m/s (+/- 65% increase)

I've also looked into doing some tweaks with the NARC and TAG systems. So far I'm planning on increasing the time that a NARC beacon lasts from 15 seconds to 20 seconds. TAG range will be boosted from 450m to 750m.

wow, really. ? Thanks for the data maxx.
Cant believe the buff for erppc ppc.
Still cant believe people posting RL data for weapon systems..
talk about apples and oranges.
How about missles then... ?
A bottle rocket travels faster than lrm in game.