123 replies to this topic

[Windies]

Broceratops, on 13 December 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

disagree.

I'm never going back to SWTOR and I'm still a big believer in bioware. I'm never going back to Diablo 3 and I'm still nostalgic about vanilla WoW.

Just because I paid for a game doesn't mean I'm more likely to come back. At that point, what I paid originally is a sunk cost.

I'm not going back because SWTOR, D3, etc are all completed games. They might add content but for the most part I got what they intended me to get so having experienced that, I can confidently say screw it.

MWO is different in that if I were to quit today, in my mind I'd still think that this isn't everything it's supposed to be yet. If at some point they announce that HEY WE'RE DONE!!! then I'll give it another shot. Especially since it still costs me nothing. This game is like 50% done in my mind, and its pretty decent since I don't have to do this trial mech BS, so I'm willing to come back at 100% and see whats up with it.

Maybe so, I gave Diablo 3 a shot the other day and I still think it's boring in the end game. I still gave it a shot though 6 months or so after it was released. MW:O on the other hand, I'm not sure if I would come back if I finally said "ok screw this, it's trash". I just honestly haven't reach that point yet because quite frankly, I want a good Mechwarrior game.

I'm thinking about someone though who has no ties to Mechwarrior playing this with the current experience, and then wanting to come back later after quitting in utter frustration. It just doesn't happen unless you have something like the IP that you are partial or biased towards. That's why CoD sells millions of copies, because people are partial to the CoD brand and they know it. Take the CoD name off and you would get a lot of "It's just like CoD, nothing innovative or new, honestly kind of boring".

You and I would come back because we know Mechwarrior, and because we like it and want a good version of it. If not for that, I don't think we would be here, and I don't think we would be coming back unless the game turned into gold.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Windies, on 13 December 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm not sure if I would come back if I finally said "ok screw this, it's trash". I just honestly haven't reach that point yet because quite frankly, I want a good Mechwarrior game.

Yeah thats kinda where I am. I dont want to give up on it because I want a good MW game. I think a lot of people still watching this title are right there with you

[Dark Severance]

Windies, on 13 December 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

You're more apt to come back to a game and try it again when you dropped $60 on it and it's a well known developer doing it, even if they do screw up. Not quite the case when it's a free game that you have nothing invested in, from a developer who made the multiplayer portion of DNF and Bass fishing games.

I play F2P games quite a bit, commonly also known as Korean MMO or Asian MMO's if you want to be more PC and have invested nothing on those games. There are a lot of games that are good games but missing certain components to truly make them great games. When I stop playing them, I know what I was missing and what could of made it better. When they do new patches, I do check to see if they've added in the things that I felt were missing. If they do I try it again. Most F2P games are usually handled by the same people for example if I stop playing MWO, I'll most likely be playing Mechwarrior Tactics. That doesn't mean I won't know how MWO is going, it is a genre and game that I enjoy and will continue to check on. When I stopped playing Lineage 2, I didn't stop checking NC Soft's website. When Aion went F2P, I checked it out. Then went back to playing L2 which went through some serious changes since I last played.

The reason I like MWO is because it has repeatability. I love Mechwarrior 4, unfortunately the AI is predicatable and I've played it literally 20+ times. Each time no matter what the decsions you make, don't effect the actual game really. I've played MWO a million times and I can tell you that the decisions I have made have either resulted in a win or a loss. But the game play does change. Sometimes there is a rush, sometimes there is a long range battle, sometimes we have to flank the enemy, other times we have to defend. There are times when I gamble to caves and it works out great and times that the opponent is waiting prepared, covering that side. There are at times no one talks, but everyone seems to know what they are doing like we were a premade and fall back when we need, focus fire when we need and it works out great. Maybe for some people it really is nothing but ECM and Atlas online, but in all the PUGing I've done I have yet to have the same experience every matchup.

[Cerlin]

How are you judging new players soley based on trial mechs? It doesnt take that many matches to get into your first non trial mech, and they switch then you can tell they are new. I see a trial awesome every single round recently. But also people get their own mechs. While im sure some people quit, it is free to play, thats part of the model.

[Dark Severance]

Windies, on 13 December 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm thinking about someone though who has no ties to Mechwarrior

I honestly don't believe at the current time anyone outside of that market is their target currently. In their minds it is in beta. The friends who I got to play it, who aren't even Mechwarrior fans, I specifically told it was in beta and still rough but its only been in development for a year and here is what they've done and here is the direction. I helped them get into the game and they are still playing. But I know a few people who tried to get their friends to play and they stopped, mostly because they said try this but didn't actually help them understand it.

I don't believe until they add in Community Warfare, factions and the things that come with that different missions, exp and cbill gains because of the objectives that it is targeted or ready for anyone that isn't a Mechwarrior fan.

[Windies]

Broceratops, on 13 December 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I feel that this is the case with most people who quit. If a year down the line they're reading IGN or PCGamer and PGI is saying okay finally we're releasing MWO, we have all these features now like community warfare, and proper matchmaking, and new game modes, and a better new player experience ... I think a lot of people will give it another shot. Now if it still sucks for them then that's definitely the last straw, but there's so much down the pipeline that anyone looking at the release features and then at what we have now will think its 2 different games.

This part you added after I responded , but , While we could wait a year or 2 years or 10 years for MW:O to be finished or in a finished state, Would the game be able to survive that long in a Minimal Viable Product state as PGI has declared it to be. This was their intent to launch the game in this state for all intents and purposes. Not with all the bugs that are in the game, but with the feature's and content that are in game, which includes things like the new user experience and lack of tutorials, terrible economy, terrible trial mech system they are intent on keeping etc...

I think the game has more than a years worth of work to honestly get to a point where a reasonable person could say, ok this game is finished even for a F2P game. The stubbornness of the developer coupled with their inexperience and ineptitude when it comes to fixing problems and implementing content in a semi balanced and proper way, frankly makes me wonder if they can ever even reach a point where MW:O breaks away from being mediocre at best to actually being good. It's pretty harsh criticism but honestly it's not unfounded or unwarranted given the current state of affairs.

If only one of us had a crystal ball and could look into the future. The only thing I have to go on though is to look at past developments, and quite frankly that's not encouraging.

[Windies]

Dark Severance, on 13 December 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

I honestly don't believe at the current time anyone outside of that market is their target currently. In their minds it is in beta. The friends who I got to play it, who aren't even Mechwarrior fans, I specifically told it was in beta and still rough but its only been in development for a year and here is what they've done and here is the direction. I helped them get into the game and they are still playing. But I know a few people who tried to get their friends to play and they stopped, mostly because they said try this but didn't actually help them understand it.

I don't believe until they add in Community Warfare, factions and the things that come with that different missions, exp and cbill gains because of the objectives that it is targeted or ready for anyone that isn't a Mechwarrior fan.

Money is the target demographic of a F2P game. That's why most F2P games are super casual and try to appeal to everyone, so they don't have target demographics. If they went into this trying to target a very specific and niche demographic of user's, this game failed far before development even entered play.

[byteu2]

I could not get any of my Battletech playing friends to stick with MWO. These are all guys who still play Battletech tabletop once a week. While they may not have liked all the Mechwarrior titles, they usually played them to story completion. They compared MWO to MechAssault, which they universally hated. They were long gone before ECM came in. As tabletop purists, they would have hated this implementation.

I don't see MWO gaining more players at this rate. I think they have what they're going to have.
I hope I'm wrong and fear I could be right.

[Mavqie]

if you don't like the game, don't play it. simples.....

[Lightfoot]

Waiting for Joystick Support?

I remember I played MWO for one week without any Joystick capability. Then they added incomplete Joystick Support and I have been using the incomplete version for my Joystick ever since (incomplete=they need to add analog turning).

In my opinion most players will refuse or liken Mouse control for a mech to a root canal. It's nice that some folks have mastered mouse+keyboard, but I guarentee you most players will go Joystick once it is working right. In MW2 thru MW4, I don't know of anyone who used Mouse+Keyboard and Joysticks were more expensive back then.

Mouse, more accurate? Yes. Joystick nearly as accurate (once they add analog turning)? Yes. Mouse+Keyboard easy/fun? No/Root Canal-ish. Joystick easy/fun? Yes/Yes.

It's good that players who want to can play MWO with a Mouse+Keyboard, but given the choice most players will be using a joystick just like they always did before.

Edited by Lightfoot, 13 December 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[Dark Severance]

Windies, on 13 December 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

I think the game has more than a years worth of work

Considering they have only a little over a years work into it, I don't believe it needs nearly that long. They've already finished the framework. Everything else is just package at this point.

Windies, on 13 December 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

That's why most F2P games are super casual and try to appeal to everyone, so they don't have target demographics.

LOL! Sorry I had a really good laugh here, not at you, but just was amusing to hear that most F2P games are casual. Korean and Asian MMO hold the largest F2P market and nearly ALL of them are grind fests, none of them are super casual. A casual player can play them and get hooked but you learn pretty quick that in order to speed things up, you have to drop money into them. That is what the F2P market is, you are right it is about money but not necessarily in the aquirement of it. A F2P development costs are way less than a typical game development because they do it with half the normal staff.

Although every game is about making money. A F2P market survives longer because the company needs a lot less money to continue development and making money. That is why there are so many WoW, F2P type clone games that survive for years. A normal game market requires a lot more though to maintain development as well as continue to pay bills for their staff. That is the main reason no one was really willing to fund Mechwarrior 5 but were ok funding Mechwarrior Online. Now granted F2P markets rarely see extremely large numbers of players but that is literally becuase there are so many of them. However this also means that it is easy to pick up players if something was designed in a certain market that was slightly niche (like say robots and not another WoW/D3 Clone). Keep in mind that the audience isn't just a Western audience as well.

Lightfoot, on 13 December 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

It's good that players who want to can play MWO with a Mouse+Keyboard, but given the choice most players will be using a joystick just like they always did before.

That was probably my biggest hurdle personally. I always play with a Joystick or controller. I have Mouse + Keyboard, unless I was playing WoW. I also hate WASD movement. Oddly enough though because of the dual reticles I've changed that stance at least for MWO. Even once they implement joysticks properly, I don't think I can switch to it because it is much easier to shoot at 2 different targets with a mouse+keyboard for me at least.

[Lanessar]

Dark Severance, on 13 December 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

I honestly don't believe at the current time anyone outside of that market is their target currently. In their minds it is in beta. The friends who I got to play it, who aren't even Mechwarrior fans, I specifically told it was in beta and still rough but its only been in development for a year and here is what they've done and here is the direction. I helped them get into the game and they are still playing. But I know a few people who tried to get their friends to play and they stopped, mostly because they said try this but didn't actually help them understand it.

This isn't correct in my case. I got 6 friends (all BT or MW fans) into the game after the second patch in Open Beta. They didn't stay. Primarily due to the lack of any sort of player retention, tutorial, or help to a new player. You got dropped against 4 LRM boats and taken out more quickly than I could tell them what to do over team speak. I spent the better part of three hours assisting them (in between getting slaughtered), but they didn't have enough of a reason to stay. Cbills and grinding in a trial didn't appeal to any of them.

Honestly, that surprised me. We also used to play EQ back in the day, and grinding for one level took ages. These were pretty patient guys with a love of the franchise.

Quote

I don't believe until they add in Community Warfare, factions and the things that come with that different missions, exp and cbill gains because of the objectives that it is targeted or ready for anyone that isn't a Mechwarrior fan.

This is where we disagree. You want CW in first; I understand. However, while in Open Beta, PGI needs money to continue development. Right now, your casual or average player isn't going to play long enough to want to spend. Period. Aside from the buggy game experience, unless you're a founder, there is very little keeping a player going after 3 matches. "Wow, I earned 300K. I only need 20 matches to get my own mech!" is not the thought that enters their head. At least in six instances, but I'm sure there are more. Only PGI knows for sure. Every player that doesn't continue is lost revenue. Lost revenue reduces the chance of us getting the game to CW.

That's what needs fixing. But it's a fundamental difference in opinion between us, so I'm not going to try to convince you differently.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Dark Severance, on 13 December 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

I don't believe until they add in Community Warfare, factions and the things that come with that different missions, exp and cbill gains because of the objectives that it is targeted or ready for anyone that isn't a Mechwarrior fan.

They should have gone into OB READY to target non MW fans. That was a mistake

Mavqie, on 13 December 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

if you don't like the game, don't play it. simples.....

hence WHERE all the new people HAVE gone

[Windies]

Dark Severance, on 13 December 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Considering they have only a little over a years work into it, I don't believe it needs nearly that long. They've already finished the framework. Everything else is just package at this point.

LOL! Sorry I had a really good laugh here, not at you, but just was amusing to hear that most F2P games are casual. Korean and Asian MMO hold the largest F2P market and nearly ALL of them are grind fests, none of them are super casual. A casual player can play them and get hooked but you learn pretty quick that in order to speed things up, you have to drop money into them. That is what the F2P market is, you are right it is about money but not necessarily in the aquirement of it. A F2P development costs are way less than a typical game development because they do it with half the normal staff.

Although every game is about making money. A F2P market survives longer because the company needs a lot less money to continue development and making money. That is why there are so many WoW, F2P type clone games that survive for years. A normal game market requires a lot more though to maintain development as well as continue to pay bills for their staff. That is the main reason no one was really willing to fund Mechwarrior 5 but were ok funding Mechwarrior Online. Now granted F2P markets rarely see extremely large numbers of players but that is literally becuase there are so many of them. However this also means that it is easy to pick up players if something was designed in a certain market that was slightly niche (like say robots and not another WoW/D3 Clone). Keep in mind that the audience isn't just a Western audience as well.

That was probably my biggest hurdle personally. I always play with a Joystick or controller. I have Mouse + Keyboard, unless I was playing WoW. I also hate WASD movement. Oddly enough though because of the dual reticles I've changed that stance at least for MWO. Even once they implement joysticks properly, I don't think I can switch to it because it is much easier to shoot at 2 different targets with a mouse+keyboard for me at least.

Being a grind fest that requires a time commitment and nothing else, is not the same as being a niche game that has mechanics that only appeal to a certain demographic. While those Korean and Asian MMO's have crazy *** grinds, fundamentally they are super casual, easy to understand and play games.

[Lightfoot]

@Dark Severance

I hear ya. For me they key to winning is always out-manuvering and shooting first. Dual Reticle is there when needed, but not as important as good piloting. For me.

[Jason1138]

every thread about how new users are turned off by this game is locked eventually

[Dark Severance]

Lanessar, on 13 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

You got dropped against 4 LRM boats and taken out more quickly than I could tell them what to do over team speak.

I remember those days. Then they put in AMS and every mech had them. Suddenly everyone was complaining about LRMs being useless. ECM actually helped that a bit because now good LRM boats need to be within 400m, easier to close and deal with them than before. Even with TAG being boosted, I don't see LRM battles being back in the 800m range unless there is open ground without any cover. The hardest part for my friends adapting was mech speed. They are used to COD type games where you move and dodge, you can't really dodge in a mech. You have to know where your line of sights and cover points are before hand and not peek out. That is what scouts are for. Took them a bit but then they do like challenges.

Lanessar, on 13 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

We also used to play EQ back in the day, and grinding for one level took ages. These were pretty patient guys with a love of the franchise.

Now that was a good game. I still play that every once and awhile, but that was fundemental where I learned all game aspects. If you aren't the MT, don't get aggro becuase the only the MT gets heals. Learned to control dps, not try to be the highest dps because if you were the highest and getting aggro, that meant you were doing it wrong. Now a days raiding is click, heal, if someone gets aggro its because the MT isn't doing a good job. Bah!

Lanessar, on 13 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

This is where we disagree. You want CW in first; I understand. However, while in Open Beta, PGI needs money to continue development. Right now, your casual or average player isn't going to play long enough to want to spend. Period. Aside from the buggy game experience, unless you're a founder, there is very little keeping a player going after 3 matches. "Wow, I earned 300K. I only need 20 matches to get my own mech!" is not the thought that enters their head. At least in six instances, but I'm sure there are more

In the time it takes to implement a new direction, development, planning, programming to make the current game ready for "casual average players", it will take the same amount of time to get CW which gives the direction needed for that. Not to mention things like tutorial can still be programmed while working in that direction. To be fair though PGI already has enough money to continue development for 2+ years just from Founders already, at least in a F2P market. If it was a standard game, they'd need a lot more.

Although 20 matches to get our own mech. I have to admit is probably the fault of some of the Closed Beta people. Most us felt that was perfectly fine, although still felt it was too fast. It gave them enough time to learn the game, learn the tactics and learn how to play with everyone. Honestly they either need to finish the VOIP part, so people can be talked through things, or make an official Vent channel. I miss the Vent beta channel, it was so much fun and easier to do testing as well as teach new people with it.

Lanessar, on 13 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

That's what needs fixing. But it's a fundamental difference in opinion between us, so I'm not going to try to convince you differently.

Respect in that. It is a difference of opinion unfortunately to a degree. Not that it matters what any of us says really. But that is the point of constructive feedback vs just QQ.

Windies, on 13 December 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Being a grind fest that requires a time commitment and nothing else, is not the same as being a niche game that has mechanics that only appeal to a certain demographic. While those Korean and Asian MMO's have crazy *** grinds, fundamentally they are super casual, easy to understand and play games.

I have to disagree. I didn't find anything complicated about the mechanics for this but then again I also play MW. Strangely enough I couldn't get behind the mechanics of WoT when I played it. I found it complicated. I know not an Asian MMO but it was F2P. Although most Asian MMO are easy only because the majority of them are WoW clones, they are games developed from games that have set standards. There really isn't anything to set a standard for a Mechwarrior game but other mechwarrior games.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I see Trials a lot... they're usually the easy kills. But I wish Piranha would share some official tracking numbers with us. How many new accounts, as a percentage, actually remain active after a week? Tell us, Piranha. We're dying to know.

[Lanessar]

Dark Severance, on 13 December 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

In the time it takes to implement a new direction, development, planning, programming to make the current game ready for "casual average players", it will take the same amount of time to get CW which gives the direction needed for that. Not to mention things like tutorial can still be programmed while working in that direction. To be fair though PGI already has enough money to continue development for 2+ years just from Founders already, at least in a F2P market. If it was a standard game, they'd need a lot more.

Although 20 matches to get our own mech. I have to admit is probably the fault of some of the Closed Beta people. Most us felt that was perfectly fine, although still felt it was too fast. It gave them enough time to learn the game, learn the tactics and learn how to play with everyone. Honestly they either need to finish the VOIP part, so people can be talked through things, or make an official Vent channel. I miss the Vent beta channel, it was so much fun and easier to do testing as well as teach new people with it.

Can't say as my CBT experience was the same. I was in for about 4 months of closed beta. We knew that "open beta" was around the corner, and there were a number of posts, suggestion threads, and well-thought-out intro and retention models posted up for the devs to review. The majority were not saying "trial grind is awesome", mostly some (sorry to go here) golds who had never tried it themselves.

The response was "trials are fine".

If the design team had enough foresight on the matter to listen to the CBT feedback on the matter, any number of the systems proposed could have been implemented. Some were clever and simple (not just throw cash) and quite possible with only minor modification to the product as it existed.

[Obadiah333]

Sifright, on 13 December 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

Thats nice darling, the problem is all those people that "Don't matter" who are leaving this game are most likely never going to come back and the negative word of mouth they generate will have already harmed this game enormously.

You are a fool if you think they can afford to wait until CW is released to get things in the game to a polished state.



Yea screw those casuals am i rite!?

Who needs new players any way!

By the by I win far more often than i lose, whether solo pugging or grouping up with friends.

80-20 Win/loss ratio at the moment. Trying to defend the game with "trolololol whiners just dont know how to play" Is both crass and ignorant. That veteran players are explicitly saying the new player experience is horrendous never mind the actual new players many of whom i'm sure leave with out ever posting on the forum at all is very telling.

You can't expect people to hang around when they are being put in trash mechs and placed against people in their kitted out customs who are not only running flavour or the month builds or just good builds in general but who ALSO have an enormous skill edge on them.

Lack of Tutorial,
Lack of real match making.
Lack of ability to test drive your mech
Lack of ability to test customization in mechlab with out spending money
Lack of performance optimization
and lastly the lack of real content are all killing this game at break neck pace, inspite of the huge amount of money they got from founders.

way to take 1 line from my post and misrepresent what I said in whole. All those little "lack of" lists at the bottom are pretty much a carbon copy of the things I said the game still needs. But I guess if you are out to make a point and don't want to include information contrary to what you want to say, you edit it out. Good call, politician.

Broceratops, on 13 December 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

disagree.

I'm never going back to SWTOR and I'm still a big believer in bioware. I'm never going back to Diablo 3 and I'm still nostalgic about vanilla WoW. Just because I paid for a game doesn't mean I'm more likely to come back. At that point, what I paid originally is a sunk cost.

I'm not going back because SWTOR, D3, etc are all completed games. They might add content but for the most part I got what they intended me to get so having experienced that, I can confidently say screw it.

MWO is different in that if I were to quit today, in my mind I'd still think that this isn't everything it's supposed to be yet. If at some point they announce that HEY WE'RE DONE!!! then I'll give it another shot. Especially since it still costs me nothing. This game is like 50% done in my mind, and its pretty decent since I don't have to do this trial mech BS, so I'm willing to come back at 100% and see whats up with it.


I feel that this is the case with most people who quit. If a year down the line they're reading IGN or PCGamer and PGI is saying okay finally we're releasing MWO, we have all these features now like community warfare, and proper matchmaking, and new game modes, and a better new player experience ... I think a lot of people will give it another shot. Now if it still sucks for them then that's definitely the last straw, but there's so much down the pipeline that anyone looking at the release features and then at what we have now will think its 2 different games.

this ^^ Yep. I've invested TONS of hours into WoW, EQII, etc. I am NEVER going back to those games. Hell, EQII is now free 2 play. STILL not going back. Bad game is bad game, and no amount of enticement, new stuff or free to play BS will lure me back. I will spend my money on other games. This game needs a lot of stuff. I hope they implement it before everyone is gone.