269 replies to this topic

[Nathan Bloodguard]

Just want to throw this in here as a quick thought. All I ask is that you give it some thought...

I'm actually starting to think the problem with ECM is that it counters things. As a quick challenge I would like to see if anyone else can find any OTHER piece of gear (Weapon, upgrade, equipment, whatever) that completely negates (not make hard, or less effective, but negates) another piece of gear.

I think the best change would be to change ECM back to its lore function. It would have two modes, on/off. On it would scramble coms (which don't exist anyways) and fills your radar with static (aka your mini map) and increase lock time for missiles by a percent for ALL mechs inside the ecm field. It should also be shorter range. This affect would be happening to BOTH sides. Off is off, Kinda self explanatory.

[Araara]

Warning, long post :

I don't usually post on the forums as others usually voice what I think. However, I find the ecm debate to be quite an important milestone as I think PGI is starting to fiddle around in the transition of TT gaming to PC gaming (which is a good thing, imo).


I'll try to bring a more abstract point of view to the ECM debate and go with the notion of "fun". As a little bit of information, when I started to play this game, I decided to dedicate myself on light mechs. As such, I've touched all the light mechs and most (if not all) of the possible weapon loadouts, bap, ams, tag, ppc, machinegun, flamer, etc.

Pre-ECM, everything people did from start to finish mattered. At the beginning, you had to form a good initial defensive line with the terrain cover to hide from LOS and LRMs, create flanking spots and try to scout/find a hole in their defense. Everyone played their roles, the scouts scouted, the flankers had to setup flanking positions/escort positions, the artillery had to setup in positions where you would have good coverage and in a hard position to flank, etc.

There was a sense of tension at the beginning, doesn't matter if you were pugging or 8v8. It was thrilling, really! If I played recklessly and overextended/gave our position away/let the other scouts freely roam around to visually confirm us, it could mean our loss!

As the battle would continue, small groups would form up out of necessity and teamwork, maneuvers would be done to try and outflank the flankers, others would support the main line, others would setup artillery position and snipe/rain missiles. It was dynamic and as a scout (and i would presume as well as a commander), this was fun. I had my brain always working and try to think a couple of steps ahead, relay my thinking to the commander or the team. Targeting priorities could go from anything : an overextended mech, a centurion with SRMs hammering our atlas from the back, a light mech trying to flank the support mechs, etc. For me, having that much dynamism was fun. EVERYONE had roles, whether the roles were dynamic roles or specialized roles, it was up to them to choose and adapt to the situation.


Post-ECM brought a certain complexity to scouting, team communication and teamwork. That I agree and am grateful. However, I feel that it is much too restricting to an enemy (with or without ECM) and drives the opposing players against a wall. In the beginning of a match, everything feels way too lax. The line that covers strategic positions for ambushes and counter-flanking mostly disappeared (except in 8v8).

Usually, when I saw an overextending light mech, I could flank him and throw some missiles and lasers at him while my support could chuck a few LRMs his way. Either he got smart and retreated to cover and back to his team with some damage or he died. Now with ECM, only direct fire is pretty much left. Assuming I lead my lasers fairly well, I still am able to only damage him with lasers. That's it. No missiles in on him, no LRMs. He has much more leeway in scouting and takes much less punishment for overextending (note that this doesn't happen much in organized 8v8 due to the ECM mobile wolfpack just hunting overextended mechs).

In this particular exemple, I feel like my back is against the wall. I managed to position myself behind a mech and trail him while he was clearly in enemy territory and surrounded. I managed to land some lasers on him as he was weaving left and right in an attempt to shake off my aim. Then after having visually confirmed my team and the general positioning/maneuvering, he does a 180 and goes back to his territory, all the while with me still damaging him while trailing him. What have I done wrong? Assuming that the enemy pilot and myself have around equal skills, I have clearly done everything I could to stop him from his objective (scouting us) but to no avail. The only way I would have stopped his objective would be by running an ECM mech myself and counter him. BAP wouldn't work and TAG would be ineffective at close range.


Putting much more effort in thinking, positionning, aiming, maneuvering to have small results is not what one would call fun.


The dynamics during the middle of the match is interesting although still brings more negative points to positive points imo. It feels like roles are much less dynamic as everyone tend to prioritize ECMs. Sure most will still focus a catapult that seems to pack SRMs or that particular Atlas with an arsenal of lasers, srms and ballistics tearing a hole in your formation, but usually when a brawl takes place and chaos is everywhere, I have the feeling most will tend to just prioritize ECM mechs to gain the advantage of information warfare.

Yes, I do realize it's an adaptation and new strategies/tactics need to be developed and adopted. But everything seems to be...dumbed down. There's less thinking about your priorities, less "on the spot" thinking and communication. There's no sense of that hectic battlefield on teamspeak/mumble/ventrilo. There are much less maneuvers on the minimap as everything just clumps up and everyone becomes brawlers (again, organized 8v8 might be different depending on the strategy used).

Now comes the question I ask myself : Is this fun? ...well, I guess it does well at killing time.

That's it. No "Wow, this was great." or "Awesome, my friends pulled a crazy incredible maneuver out of his ***". There's less ingenuity, no originality. Seldom do I get my heart racing anymore because of the tension from start to finish.

THAT is the reason why I voted on its temporary removal until they do something, anything, to make this more interesting. More counters to ECM and leave it as it is? sure. Tweak ECM a bit? sure. Completely change/remove ECM? sure. I'm up for anything really. Just try and remember to bring back that amazing tension that makes us giddy from the inside!


Here's some of my thoughts though : Sure we're beta testers right now but please keep in mind that we are gamers first and foremost. We're the group you're supposed to make us go "Wow !" remember ? The more nice words we get to spread around, the more it will bring to the community!



edit : forgot to talk about 8v8 : I don't want to go much into details as I'm sure some of you noticed the min/maxing of team composition with ECM lately (aka ravens,commandos, cicadas, cataphracts/catapults and atlases) due to league practices.

Let's just say there's much less variety in mech variants and mech chassis, shall we? Again, to me it's starting feel a little bit stale playing against the same composition again and again.


That's why I feel the weight limit on 8v8 would be great! It would allow for balanced teams with different weight class composition to fight each other! Much MUCH more variety and originality in battles. I very much so look forward to that!


Abstaining from the 3rd vote though.

Edited by Araara, 16 December 2012 - 11:29 PM.

[Tomas Devere]

While I voted for saying no to dropping ECM in the upcoming patch, I do think there needs to be a rebalancing aspect to ECM. TAG, BAP, and other counters should be made more effective against ECM. Also, missiles should be able to lock onto a light ECM carrying mech, but just make the lockon longer and easier to break.

As for PUGs versus 8 man synch drops, I say the PUGs should find a home and join a synch drop if they are tired of getting beat on.

[Alvor]

To summarize TAG should always work & Streaks/Regular LRMs should always work if using Canon BT/MW.

Number of (regular) missiles hit per salvo in current MWO is OP. On average only about 50%-60% should be hitting i.e. LRM20 average 12 missiles hit per salvo.

All this information was taken from http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page which is one of the best resources for Battletech information.

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Guardian ECM Suite is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.[2]

http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite

Angel ECM Suite is an experimental version of the Guardian ECM Suite operating on a broader spectrum and greatly advances ECM technology on the battlefield.
Game Rules
The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV,Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area.

http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear

Target Acquisition Gear (TAG) is an advanced targeting device for use by artillery spotters. The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles. TAG is compatible with systems such as Arrow IV Homing Missiles or LRM munitions.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM

Streak Missile Launcher Unlike a standard SRM whose shotgun effect may result in some misses and some hits, Streak guidance gives the lighter launchers the effective average firepower of the heavier and more wasteful SRM systems, but with considerably less variation in damage effects. The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon, their specialized ammunition is much more expensive, and some users are willing to accept partial hits rather than not be able to fire on demand.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM

Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.[1]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

Number of Missiles Hit Table
Die Roll (2D6) Number of Missiles Fired
2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
2 1 1 1 1 2 3 3 4 5 6
3 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 4 5 6
4 1 1 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 9
5 1 2 2 3 3 5 6 8 9 12
6 1 2 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
7 1 2 3 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
8 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
9 2 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 12 16
10 2 3 3 4 5 7 8 10 12 16
[u]11[/u] 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
[u]12[/u] 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20

[Mystere]

Necromancer!

[Ghogiel]

Alvor, on 18 February 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Number of Missiles Hit Table
Die Roll (2D6) Number of Missiles Fired
2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
2 1 1 1 1 2 3 3 4 5 6
3 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 4 5 6
4 1 1 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 9
5 1 2 2 3 3 5 6 8 9 12
6 1 2 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
7 1 2 3 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
8 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
9 2 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 12 16
10 2 3 3 4 5 7 8 10 12 16
11 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
12 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20

pfft

[Bishop Steiner]

dear god.... someone has too much time on their hands. I wrote this post and don't see any point in necro-ing it!

[MoonUnitBeta]

Thank you Alvor for your hard work and dedication.

[Eddrick]

Strange poll results. Most of the people want ECM to stay. I would have expected differant with how many people don't like it.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Alvor, on 18 February 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

To summarize TAG should always work & Streaks/Regular LRMs should always work if using Canon BT/MW.

Number of (regular) missiles hit per salvo in current MWO is OP. On average only about 50%-60% should be hitting i.e. LRM20 average 12 missiles hit per salvo.

All this information was taken from http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page which is one of the best resources for Battletech information.

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Guardian ECM Suite is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.[2]

http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite

Angel ECM Suite is an experimental version of the Guardian ECM Suite operating on a broader spectrum and greatly advances ECM technology on the battlefield.
Game Rules
The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV,Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area.

http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear

Target Acquisition Gear (TAG) is an advanced targeting device for use by artillery spotters. The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles. TAG is compatible with systems such as Arrow IV Homing Missiles or LRM munitions.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM

Streak Missile Launcher Unlike a standard SRM whose shotgun effect may result in some misses and some hits, Streak guidance gives the lighter launchers the effective average firepower of the heavier and more wasteful SRM systems, but with considerably less variation in damage effects. The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon, their specialized ammunition is much more expensive, and some users are willing to accept partial hits rather than not be able to fire on demand.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM

Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.[1]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

Number of Missiles Hit Table
Die Roll (2D6) Number of Missiles Fired
2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
2 1 1 1 1 2 3 3 4 5 6
3 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 4 5 6
4 1 1 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 9
5 1 2 2 3 3 5 6 8 9 12
6 1 2 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
7 1 2 3 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
8 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
9 2 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 12 16
[u]10[/u] 2 3 3 4 5 7 8 10 12 16
[u]11[/u] 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
[u]12[/u] 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20

Wow...thats some post. Im guessing you dont get out much.