11 replies to this topic

[Tolkien]

Hi there,

I am a longtime mechwarrior player who has played and enjoyed MW1, MW2, MW3, pirates moon, MW4, mercenaries, MPBT3025 and quite a bit of tabletop.

In all of the video game versions there are changes made to the way systems work which is expected when going from a table top hex map dice rolling turn based game to a real time pew pew shooting game.

That said, I think that tabletop did some things really well which are worth bringing over to this game if at all possible, and these include Pulse and LBX technologies.

Right now pulse lasers are being used, but are still not very effective against lag shielded lights, and LBX AC10s are only good if the enemy armor is already gone, and you are at short range, otherwise the increased critical bonus just is not worth very much, and the spread makes it a very bad weapon at any range.

I submit that these systems need to be revised to do more of what they did on the tabletop, which is primarily add bonuses to hit. On the tabletop if you never played it, you rolled 'to hit' on 2d6, which was made more or less difficult by whether you were at short-medium-or long range for the weapon you were shooting, modified by how fast you were moving, how fast your target was moving, and whether there were any trees in the way or if you were overheated.

In MWO your to hit is based on lining the reticule up on where you think the enemy is going to be when you think your shot will register on the server... not great, which is part of why streaks and lrms were so popular for dealing with fast moving lights. Let the server argue with itself over what is where

On tabletop the bonus for LBX cluster rounds was +1, and the bonus for pulse lasers was +2 on to hit. Giving these weapons bonuses to hit would make them much more useful, and give them a niche as well as give lights a much needed counterbalance.


Here's how I think it should be done:

1) For pulse lasers, keep the graphic the same but make it so that if you rake the laser accross an enemy, only the locations you hit take any damage, but the weapons full damage is always assigned to the enemy. This would mean that you could rake the laser accross the lights legs, hitting empty space on both sides and in between, but you would still do about 5 points of damage to each leg - effectively a big to hit bonus.

2) For LBX turn down the max damage, but make it so that if a single pellet hits, the full damage of the weapon is randomly assigned to the enemy target. This would not do a lot of damage, but it sure would be hard to avoid, just like on the tabletop.


I do a lot of embedded coding and know that simple ideas can be practically quite hard to implement, so I will understand if this can't be done for one reason or another. I still believe it should be done to give pulse and LBX their intended niches back (especially inner sphere pulse that is not meant to be any good at range...) and to also give light hunters more tools. Right now I run a commando 2D due to the broken ECM implementation and live way too long when I run through the whole enemy team putting SRM6 packs into assault mechs backs...

'hey look at that tool trying to hit me with gauss slugs... lewl...'

Add in friendly fire which didn't exist on the tabletop and hunting lights near your friends is silly hard right now...

[Zyllos]

Pulse Lasers just need their beam time cut in half (so all the damage comes out quickly).

LBX-10 just needs to be tighter so it can be used in most of it's optimum range.

[Tolkien]

Zyllos, on 14 December 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

Pulse Lasers just need their beam time cut in half (so all the damage comes out quickly).

LBX-10 just needs to be tighter so it can be used in most of it's optimum range.

I want to describe why I didn't propose what you are suggesting there. What you are suggesting would probably work in some situations, since tightening up the LBX would make it much more useful in close combat than it is right now against a mech with armor remaining, and a shorter duration would make the Pulse laser damage be more concentrated as well.

The problem is that it would make both weapons even harder to hit lights with - right now to hit a light mech you need to guess where he is going to be not just when your bullet gets there, but when the server thinks the bullet gets to where the server thinks the enemy is.

I don't like having to shoot at empty air and find it ruins the immersion.

So that's why I suggested keeping the pulse laser duration as it is, and the cluster size where it is, and making it so that if any part of the laser or the cluster hits the target the weapon does its full damage. This would mean having to turn down the damage but it would make pulse lasers into what they were meant to be from tabletop - light mech hunters.

[Elder Thorn]

hm.. i think Pulse Lasers and LBX are allready working great, i love my shotgun DDC...

[JudgeDeathCZ]

LBX-10 are working fine.Just try them on D-DC or cataphract with combo with SRMs6

[Tolkien]

Elder Thorn, on 14 December 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

hm.. i think Pulse Lasers and LBX are allready working great, i love my shotgun DDC...

Really? I haven't found the LBX compelling here since the way they have implemented the shotgun spread makes it really bad at any longer range. On tabletop you can carry half a ton of both normal AC/10 ammo and LBX10 ammo, and the LBX can be switched to use one type or the other depending on whether you want to shoot far away or up close.

The shotgun mechanic on tabletop was also a little different, in that a hit was a hit, and at any range you rolled to see how many pellets hit the target, so damage didn't fall of with range like it does here.

Maybe I'm just too in love with the way things worked in tabletop (and I hate lag shields).

[Elder Thorn]

Tolkien, on 14 December 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Really? I haven't found the LBX compelling here since the way they have implemented the shotgun spread makes it really bad at any longer range. On tabletop you can carry half a ton of both normal AC/10 ammo and LBX10 ammo, and the LBX can be switched to use one type or the other depending on whether you want to shoot far away or up close.

The shotgun mechanic on tabletop was also a little different, in that a hit was a hit, and at any range you rolled to see how many pellets hit the target, so damage didn't fall of with range like it does here.

Maybe I'm just too in love with the way things worked in tabletop (and I hate lag shields).

hm, i never played Battletech TT, though i am a fan of those type of games.
But i have to admit, i don't get it right now. What was the purpose of the LBX Ammo, if (as i understand you) all it does was, to reduce effective damage, because it has that can pellets can miss even on a hit, while the AC/10 will hit - on a hit.
I probably got that wrong

And yes, i really love the DDC with 2 LBX's and SRM6s without artemis.
2 alphas to kill a hunchback that it stupid enough to stand still - max 10 meters away from him of course
I understand this as the trade off for using the LBX, effective combat range is reduced... well.. slightly

Edited by Elder Thorn, 14 December 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[Szaesse]

The use of the LB-X Autocannon was that it allowed you to have a higher chance to critical your enemy. The way you used an LB-X would be to use HEAP rounds (standard autocannon ammo) to punch through enemy armor, then fire your scatter rounds to increase the likelihood of damaging important internal systems. That's how it worked in TT.

There were a lot of other things that TT did that is extremely difficult to do in a game like MW:O, or any other computer game for that matter. Multiple munitions was one example. The LB-X could use standard rounds or cluster rounds. The pilot would decide what to load, and that's what was fired. The standard autocannon had many special munitions. Precision Ammunition, for example, had micro rockets on the bullet that adjusted it's flight path for greater accuracy, but was twice as large as normal ammo. Flechette rounds were basically frag grenades fired from a mech to deal with infantry. Flak rounds were similar to LB-X ammo, except that they were specifically used against aerospace assets. Armor Piercing rounds were the same size as precision rounds, but every time they hit they could score a critical, whether there was still armor on that torso or not. Caseless rounds could double your ammo, but the ammo could jam up your weapon because of residue left by the propellant.

Except for caseless, a mechwarrior could pick and choose. If you have 3 tons of ammo, you could carry a ton of precision for dealing with light mechs, a ton of armor piercing for dealing with assault and tough heavy mechs, and a ton of HEAP for dealing with everything else, picking your current ammo as you desired.

The same could happen with LRM's and SRM's. FASCAM (mine-laying missiles), inferno (napalm missiles), FTL (follow-the-leader where the missiles of a flight would follow the first missile in to hit the same place), illumination (basically a giant flare for eliminating darkness cover), heat-seaking, acid, smoke or anti-laser (basically a smoke missile, but it created a dispersion cloud that caused lasers to break up if they tried to pass through it). Again, you could carry an assortment of these missile types, and load them up as you needed them.

To implement this, you would require a lot of controls that allowed you to select a particular type of ammo. This would also require multiple ammo tracks (so you could keep track of how many of each ammo you had). In many cases, the ammo would require special treatment (precision rounds locking on like a streak missile, for example). The coding would be absolute hell. Add in the fact you can use less than a full ton of individual ammo in the game (for example, there are many cases of a unit carrying only a single load worth of FASCAM missiles, which isn't even half a ton. Aiden Pryde did this in the fiction) and you add in a great deal of complication. This complication could be a lot of fun for a player who really enjoys this sort of thing, but would make it extremely difficult on less experienced players. Also, as I said before, the coding would be hell.

[Tolkien]

^ This guy gets a gold star for knowing 'what I'm talkin' about'.

And what he said about having way too many options on tabletop was true aswell, and some of the rounds like amour piercing were a bit too much in their own right.

The LBX as it is right now doesn't do what the LBX did well on the tabletop, which is give the pilot an option to do 10 points of damage in one spot using regular ammo, *OR* use buckshot for a +1 on hit rolls and do 8x1pt of damage which was terrifying if you were in a mech that had armor holes. More shots meant more likelihood that 1 would find the armor hole and cause a critical hit.

Due to the rampant netcode problems at this juncture my suggestion was meant to adapt the LB10 pulse to at least make it do half of its job by reliably hitting lights even when lag shielded.

[Zyllos]

Yes, but that is fundamentally changing the weapon.

The reason why I proposed lowering the duration of Pulses is to make each pulse deal more damage. This way, when you do hit (I actually have zero problems hitting lights with lasers, its hitting lights with projectile weapons I have issues with), it will deal more damage. An LBX is an exception here. I can hit with a good majority of my pellets with the LBX against circling lights.

And the LBX should be scary up close and up to it's optimum range if you are missing armor. I see no issues with this tightening.

Edited by Zyllos, 14 December 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[Tolkien]

Zyllos, on 14 December 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Yes, but that is fundamentally changing the weapon.

The reason why I proposed lowering the duration of Pulses is to make each pulse deal more damage. This way, when you do hit (I actually have zero problems hitting lights with lasers, its hitting lights with projectile weapons I have issues with), it will deal more damage. An LBX is an exception here. I can hit with a good majority of my pellets with the LBX against circling lights.

And the LBX should be scary up close and up to it's optimum range if you are missing armor. I see no issues with this tightening.

My disagreement mostly comes from these changes making the weapons more effective against a stationary target (potentially in addition to making them more useful against a moving target). That's why I was suggesting lowering the total damage but having the weapon do all of it if it hits anywhere.

[Szaesse]

I personally like the idea of tightening the clump of shots a little bit. At present, you're lucky if you hit with 3 or 4 pellets at medium range, and if you manage 2 or 3 at long range he is either coming right at you, moving directly away, standing still, or you are REALLY good. I don't think adding "to hit" bonuses is a very good idea for a game like MW:O, personally. There are a lot of weapons that one could easily hit with at long range in the TT game, which are significantly more difficult in this game. SRMs and PPC's come to mind.

The LB-X autocannon is functioning in this game very similarly to the way it has functioned in nearly every other MechWarrior game that has been produced. It's much easier to hit with, but it's damage potential is best recognized at close range, where you are most likely to land all of the pellets on your target. Personally, I think it is working just fine. The only issue I have is that the LB-X scatters SO much in this game compared to previous titles. I think that tightening the scatter a bit would make this better. For example, it could possibly scatter only as much as an Atlas' bulk at maximum range. This would mean that you would most likely land 3/4+ of your cluster rounds in a target at long range, while still having enough of a spread to deal with lag shield in lights.