124 replies to this topic

[Tuhalu]

It's been stated before in this thread, but it bears repeating. Gauss Rifles are huge explosions waiting to happen. At least with an AC/20 you can hide the ammo somewhere unlikely to get hit until your mech is virtually dead (if they are getting criticals on your center torso or head, you are in deep trouble anyway!). Gauss Rifles tend to sit in places that are weakly armoured like arms and with 7 criticals to fill, there isn't much else in the arm. Nearly any critical rips the arm off and plows into the torso, while shocking the pilot rather rudely.

Yes, it's superior to an AC/20 in nearly every other way, but don't discount how fast you can wind up out of the fight when someone blows up your gauss rifle!

[3Xtr3m3]

I think it is all about the boom. I think a GR firing would be relatively eventless. Capaciters firing, a fairly quiet reload (ca klink), and the whine of capaciters recharging(ZeeeeEEE). The GR round would of course create a sonic boom in traveling and a pretty good clang with impact, but frankly not a lot of noise with it.

AC/20s I think are much louder, much more fire and smoke and light. A much more satisfactory auditory experience. (Ca-BANGKRAKAKOOOOM) And in a night battle I want it lighting up a huge area in front of me.
If I have the sound cranked up, I want the neighbors cat peeling itself off the ceiling.

So why AC/20 over Gaus? Because it should be more fun. IMO.

[eZZip]

Tuhalu, on 18 May 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

It's been stated before in this thread, but it bears repeating. Gauss Rifles are huge explosions waiting to happen. At least with an AC/20 you can hide the ammo somewhere unlikely to get hit until your mech is virtually dead (if they are getting criticals on your center torso or head, you are in deep trouble anyway!). Gauss Rifles tend to sit in places that are weakly armoured like arms and with 7 criticals to fill, there isn't much else in the arm. Nearly any critical rips the arm off and plows into the torso, while shocking the pilot rather rudely.

I'm not sure how you can argue that the gauss rifle is inferior because of the # of crits, considering that the AC/20 uses even more crits and is heavier. Considering the mech lab, you could easily just replace the Hunchback's AC/20 with a gauss rifle so that it sits in the torso. Your statement about the ammo makes little sense; why can't you hide gauss rifle ammunition in the centre torso? You literally only analyzed weaknesses on the gauss rifle and ignored the fact that those weaknesses are equal or greater with AC/20s.

[ManDaisy]

This actually goes all the way back to table top and magic numbers. In table top those 5 extra points of damage make the difference between totally stripping a location of armor (meds and up) to totally blowing completely thru a location (lights). Let me give you an example. Mech A (typical 60 ton mech) can hold 18 points of armor on their torso. If they are hit with an autocannon 20, it rips off 18 armor and does 2 internal damage giving you a chance of critical hit which may destroy equipement in that location. If mech A is hit by a gauss rifle slug, then they lose only 15 points of armor leaving them with 3 remaining armor and no chance of critical. You would have to hit it a second time to do anything significant instead of only once. In game time this would translate to 10 extra seconds in between reloads for weapons. That is why it is essential to not tamper with the armor values. If you adjust the armor values you then mess up the balance of every weapon in the game.

Edited by ManDaisy, 19 May 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[zverofaust]

You can't really be this dense.

[Beazle]

FIrst, 15 is NOT close to 20. That's a third more damage! how can you say that's close? Especially when that damage is all hitting a single location.

Second, lore wise the AC/20 was around sooner and longer than the gauss rifle, so many more mechs are designed around the AC in this era. Just being able to find a gauss in 3048 would be a major feat for anybody but the best supplied units (assuming they've even been re-discovered canon is pretty sketchy as to dates when lostech becomes common)

To be honest though, once the gauss became available, nearly every design swapped out the AC/20 for it. The combination of range, lower heat, and reduced Stackpole effect is a pretty major deal. The only time the AC/20 is worth the trade offs is when your building a dedicated close fighter. (I'll take a Victor over a gauss equiped Atlas in an urban fight any day)

[Solis Obscuri]

Garth Erlam, on 17 May 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

This seems more of a 'why the hell are you running in a straight line in an open field' argument than a 'Gauss > AC/20' argument.

Garth, will the Gauss Rifle have minimum range penalties as per TT, like the PPC does?

[Aaron DeChavilier]

if convergence works the way it sounds like it will in this game: then the A\C20 is for CQB, or close-quarters battle.
The shorter barrel means a quicker rate to reach the convergence point, whereas the GR would take longer. Even
as a game balancer, that's the way to go, the A\C20 is for knife-fighters, the GR is for snipers, both have their place.

[Vexgrave Lars]

AC/20 is a brawlers weapon, the Gauss is a scalpel

We can't all be surgeons.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Solis Obscuri, on 21 May 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Garth, will the Gauss Rifle have minimum range penalties as per TT, like the PPC does?

I believe they said "no" to minimum-ranges on Autocannon and Gauss...but, alas, I am merely a Forum User, slated for death, and not a Dev.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 22 May 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[Youngblood]

I would like to present Exhibit A, located in my signature.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Because after 3 AC/20 shots I've done 60 points of damage, while with a Gauss I'll have done 45. Or after 4 the AC is at 80 damage, while the Gauss has just reached 60. Since your going to shoot the weapon more than once (unless you get a lucky head shot) the AC piles on the damage faster, and the increased range of the Gauss could very well be negated depending on the terrain or map your fighting on. And 20 points of damage for 7 points of heat is a great deal.

[Shirow]

@tuhalu question bro?!

Couldn't you Just use CASE for your Gauss Rifles in the section containing the Gauss Rifle to protect internal components in the event the weapon explodes.??

Why just not have both AC/20 and Gauss rifle, the best of both worlds??!

(Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment (CASE) - probably more of a construction option than equipment, CASE seals all of the ammo in a torso into a box. If the ammo (or Gauss Rifle) explodes, and does enough damage to transfer, the excess damage is blown out the rear of the mech. The side torso is still destroyed (and its accompanying arm), but the mech is still alive, provided that it didn't have an XL engine. CASE only works in the side torsos, although it does channel out ammo explosions that started in an arm or leg.)
http://pages.cs.wisc...ech_design.html

"The Gauss Rifle's ammo doesn't explode when hit, but the Gauss Rifle itself does, so CASE can help with that."
http://mwomercs.com/...sh/page__st__40

Edited by Shirow, 20 June 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Shirow, on 29 May 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Why just not have both AC/20 and Gauss rifle, the best of both worlds??!

because when you stay at range you AC 20 is dead weight
when you move close your GaussRifle could better be replaced by another AC 20

I never liked Jack in all Trades mech...i prefer specialist so your idea would work but it will take 2 mechs ;-)

OT:
by the way - it is possible to like my own posts?

[Dymitry]

To reiterate, gauss rifle is a newer technology, by 90 years according to sarna, which in is warfare is a lot! To have a fairer comparison you should take it "against" an lbx or a ultra, as they belong to the same "tech level". To put it simply, there is no gauss rifle alternative in the ac20 "generation", reason why, as already said before, when gauss become widespread pretty much everyone and everything swaps the good-ol ac 20 for them. However in terms of sheer damage the ac 20 still holds the edge, and the 5 points of extra damage mean crippling stuff the the gauss will not in a single shot.

[Osiris513]

Several points.... 20 vs 15 is a significant amount of damage difference.
As posters previously mentioned, 20 is also a 'magic number' in btech, punching through many armour locations in a single hit, ALSO, 20 damage forced a knockdown check, while 15 did not.

and to ZZip... the reason he made his comparisons is because with a gauss rifle, a hit to the weapon itself causes an internal explosion, whereas with 'normal' ammo weapons, you have to hit the ammunition (hence why it doesnt makse sense to 'hide' gauss ammo, as it doesnt explode) so his arguments make sense... yours do not, but I think it is simply due to lack of knowledge of the btech weaponry.

and to the poster who asked... no you cant put CASE around a gun, only around ammo.

So although the high mobility of heavies and realtime environment does make the gauss look nicer in a game like this vs tabletop, there were many legitimate reasons to take the AC in the tabletop that could easily be accounted for in this as well.

[MaddMaxx]

I have to start feeling bad for the Beta testers after all this. Imagine the dilemna they face. What to load? AC20 or Gauss Rifle?, Gauss Rifle or AC20?, AC20 or Gauss Rifle?

It must be absolute hell.... LOL

Edited by MaddMaxx, 30 May 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[Kudzu]

Osiris513, on 30 May 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

and to the poster who asked... no you cant put CASE around a gun, only around ammo.

You might want to tell that to the Caesar and Atlas K...

[RangerRob]

The 20 causes a piloting check....at least on the table top.

Not sure how damage and knockdowns will work in MWO yet.

[Nasty9]

Assuming both weapons are in range, the AC20 extra damage stacks up pretty quickly. If both weapons are fired continuously as they are recycled, the AC20 can dish out 90 more damage in 60 seconds (assuming MW4 recycle times).

http://www.wolframal...+range+-0+to+60