17 replies to this topic

[Wonderdog]

It seems to me that the primary problem facing PGI when attempting to balance the various flavours of AC against the mighty gauss rifle is that the gauss, under current conditions, is simply the more efficient direct fire weapon.

The lack of heat, long effective range, high damage, non volatile ammo, high round velocity, and decent ammo per tonne make it extremely difficult to balance anything that fits in the same hardpoint within the meta game.

Nerfs to the gauss rifles internal hit points are valuable for adding flavor to the weapon (similiar to the announced "characteristics" of different mech variants), but don't modify the weapons damage dealing potential in any way.


So rather than nerf the gauss (which is unnecessary - its behaving as intended and is in a good place IMO) - PGI are sensibly trying to balance autocannon up the way to make them more appealing as an option, firstly in terms of reload speed and ammo per tonne, and soon via a significantly increased round velocity.

This is all good, but still, tonne for tonne, autocannon are mathematically worse as an in game direct fire weapon. Even in terms of DPS - all the higher DPS autocannon generate heat to achieve that DPS, heat which needs tonnage and crits (in the form of heatsinks) to balance - tonnage which could instead be spent on more powerful lasers (thus balancing the dps) on a gauss equipped varient.

The key to solving this problem is not to nerf the gauss, but to find a way to differentiate autocannon.

So - my suggestion to PGI - how about giving autocannon rounds a bit of splash damage? - similar to the splash effect on missiles (the code is already there!). Gauss rifles fire a single, solid high velocity ferrous slug, which by its nature and design will punch a neat hole into a single location on impact. Autocannon on the other hand fire explosive shells - which in the event of impact cause the bulk of their damage to the target location, but also throw out shrapnel and blast waves that are likely to cause some peripheral damage to adjacent locations as well.

What do people think about this suggestion? It seems fluffy, doesnt involve nerfing the gauss or moving autocannon too far from their canon descriptions, and differentiates the weapons nicely.

#Wonderdog

Edited by Wonderdog, 15 December 2012 - 08:56 AM.

[TheAquired]

I like this idea, I am definitly not against it. Why dont you make a poll so people can vote yes or no? Good Idea!

[Wonderdog]

TheAquired, on 15 December 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

I like this idea, I am definitly not against it. Why dont you make a poll so people can vote yes or no? Good Idea!

Good idea. I always forget the poll option!

Added now.

[RFMarine]

people are going to complain about it being OP no matter how small the change

[Grym]

Although not completely against the idea, i still voted no.

The truth is ACs need a re-design almost from the ground up.

1. Remove the firing delay. The excuse of "Its to stop hackers" is false, aimbots could just use lasers.
2. Leave bullet travel, shot re-cycle, and effective ranges near where they are now.
3. Reduce damage (they will be far more accurate, with current damage levels lasers would be undesireable if left at current levels).
4. Increase ammo per ton by 15%
5. Decrease heat levels by 5%

What this all boils down to is firing delay. It really makes using ACs a horrible experience.

And yes i should learn to play, and yes i should learn to adjust for the delay, and yes i should adjust for lag.

But thats not what anyone wants to do. So much guess work should not be put into firing a weapon.

The reason i prefer to use Gauss over other ammo based weaponry, its firing delay feels much shorter.

Edited by Grym, 15 December 2012 - 09:52 AM.

[HarmAssassin]

I am against adding splash damage to the Autocannon. First, it isn't a frag-type shell, it is armor piercing (big difference). Second, I would like to see the AC's firing delay (and the firing delay of all weapons) eliminated. Lastly I would like to see the mech firing the AC have 1/2 the shake of the mech receiving damage from the AC.

The ability to deal 100% of a weapon's damage to a single hit location, every time, is a huge advantage over other weapons. There needs to be a way to balance this. Firing delay, isn't the way to do this. Adding recoil to the firing of autocannons will help (in exchange for eliminating firing delay).

If the Gauss rifle or an AC proves to be too strong, simply reduce its reload speed (if needed).

[x Marder x]

Gauss weapons need a lot of energy so after shooting the Gauss all other weapons have a cool down. Lets say it drains lots of energy of the reactor. So you cant fire two Gauss at once or shoot laser ppc or rockets immediately after it. If you have ECM or AMS or other stuff on your mech it shuts off for a second. How about that? With AC you can DAKKA DAKKA with Gauss no dakka dakka more like a dak dak?

[Joseph Mallan]

Its a good idea but DU ammo just doesn't work that way. The Gauss has trumped ACs since it's introduction. the only reason to us an AC is personal preference or tonnage/space limitations.

[Ryvucz]

LBX 10AC is all the splash you need.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ryvucz, on 15 December 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

LBX 10AC is all the splash you need.

And deserves it's ability to fire slugs as well!

[Justin Xang Allard]

Grym, on 15 December 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Although not completely against the idea, i still voted no.

The truth is ACs need a re-design almost from the ground up.

1. Remove the firing delay. The excuse of "Its to stop hackers" is false, aimbots could just use lasers.
2. Leave bullet travel, shot re-cycle, and effective ranges near where they are now.
3. Reduce damage (they will be far more accurate, with current damage levels lasers would be undesireable if left at current levels).
4. Increase ammo per ton by 15%
5. Decrease heat levels by 5%

What this all boils down to is firing delay. It really makes using ACs a horrible experience.

And yes i should learn to play, and yes i should learn to adjust for the delay, and yes i should adjust for lag.

But thats not what anyone wants to do. So much guess work should not be put into firing a weapon.

The reason i prefer to use Gauss over other ammo based weaponry, its firing delay feels much shorter.

so basicly you are wanting a gauss rifle that has a verry short range and is taken out much faster than the current gauss and creates lots more heat and has explosive ammo..........

i dont like your suggestion

[Macheiron]

Actually, Auto-cannons can use HEAP munitions. This means that limited splash would appropriate.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon

Edited by Macheiron, 15 December 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

By what mathematical do you think are Gauss Rifles better than Autocannons?

If you just look at heat cost, ammo cost, weight, damage output and range, most Autocannons look rather good. But maybe you weigh projectile speed or alpha strike damage stronger than I do?


Source: http://mwomercs.com/...nks-2012-12-08/

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 16 December 2012 - 12:55 AM.

[Capt Cole 117]

Dual ac5s are extremely effective.

[Grym]

Justin Xang Allard, on 15 December 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

so basicly you are wanting a gauss rifle that has a verry short range and is taken out much faster than the current gauss and creates lots more heat and has explosive ammo..........

i dont like your suggestion

No i was talking about ACs. I didnt say a thing about gauss besides i prefer them over other ammo based weaponry.

Did you even read my post? I didnt recommend the change of ANY of the Gauss rifles stats. In fact i did not recommend any of the changes that your disagreeing with.

[Elder Thorn]

asking me, the only problem is the firing delay, rest is fine.

[TigrisMorte]

because all weapons are better if you dilute their damage by spreading it over a larger area and the idiotic 90% on a crit is not enough to "downside" the Gauss.

[Gigastrike]

Biased poll is biased. Compared to gauss rifles, most autocannons are fine. The AC/2, U-AC/5, AC/10, LB 10-X AC, and AC 20 all have higher dps (most have an equivalent or near equivalent alpha as well). I also find the heat generated to negligible, especially considering that their significantly lighter weight leaves more than enough room for heatsinks, not to mention I always run out of weight long before I run out of crit slots, even with endosteel and double heatsinks.

People just plain put too much weight on heat efficiency. You don't need to be heat neutral, because you're not holding the trigger down the entire fight. You only need to last as long as an engagement does (sometimes not even if there's plenty of cover), and autocannons are perfectly capable of doing just that, better, and for less weight.