17 replies to this topic

[MoonUnitBeta]

I think ECM shouldn't stack. I don't think it's THE fix for ECM, but then again I don't think that ECM is entirely broken (except for it stacks...). It's pretty ludicrous when you get 4 commando's meandering over to your base with 4 ECM, and here you are with only 1 ECM on counter mode, yet you still can't do anything. That's the OP part.


Everything else can stay the same though, but it looks like TAG is getting a buff to 750m so that is good. I like that TAG doesn't work inside of the ECM bubble.

However, don't get me wrong. I'm one of those people that like ECM in it's current state, and I think it is working great. I think this because I'm not short sighted and see many other things that need to come. Those things to come will help with the ECM balance. I'm also an optimist. I'm not so quick to call things down in a thunder cloud of words and rage.

Anyways, that is something that I think would be the easiest, simplest change, and something that is agreeable, as opposed to making TAG and "hard counter" to ECM. People wanting TAG to be the counter for ECM makes me giggle, but the 750m buff is going to help people who want that, and I'm good with that

YAY! Thanks for reading.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 15 December 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

Edit:) NM



The stacking issue is probably why you are seeing x8 ECM mechs in 8V8..


non-stacking ECM would lessen its viability...im am not sure if its enough but its a step in the right direction.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 15 December 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[Codejack]

The TAG range increase is pretty much useless; it needs to work inside the bubble.

ECM not stacking would be a good start, but there still need to be more disadvantages than 1.5 tons and 2 slots. Running 10 heat, for example....

I also think that NARC should work against ECM (at least letting you get lock), should get more ammo/ton and last longer.

Failing that, just remove it entirely. I like the idea of ECM, but 2 weeks of playing with this crap has cured me of wanting to see it ever again.

[p00k]

i agree ecm shouldn't stack. other things can be tweaked, but making it not stack means rather than everybody feeling compelled to run an ecm, you'd only need 2-3 per team to cover everyone

[MoonUnitBeta]

SpiralRazor, on 15 December 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Edit:) NM



The stacking issue is probably why you are seeing x8 ECM mechs in 8V8..


non-stacking ECM would lessen its viability...im am not sure if its enough but its a step in the right direction.

And that's what I think would be great. Say you are a lone commando at your base with some friends, and only you have ECM. And in come strolling some raven thugs pimped out in ECM bling, But, since they don't stack, you pop yours to counter, and now your pals are like "oh hey, sweet. lets kill them" and then the raven thugs die.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Codejack, on 15 December 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

The TAG range increase is pretty much useless; it needs to work inside the bubble.

ECM not stacking would be a good start, but there still need to be more disadvantages than 1.5 tons and 2 slots. Running 10 heat, for example....

Reasons why I think TAG working inside ECM is silly:
1. TAG is not a magic laser that "lights up" a target. TAG is data relay to your Mech.
2. It's your Mech that gathers the data coming back from the TAG laser.
3. It's your Mech that transmits the data from your TAG out to your teammates
4. ECM scrambles your commucation to your team mates. You cannot see their location, and you disappear on their minimap.
5. Why would suddenly using TAG clear you from the scrambled communications from ECM? It shouldn't. That's silly.

Sorry to bring in some "realism" into MWO, but magic red beams that weigh a tonne shouldn't be given so much power. If you complain about ECM being OP for 2tonnes, then a 1 tonne laser pointer is OP for negating ECM.
ECM should counter ECM, or like PGI has said, other things will come into play to go against ECM, in the form of other weapons or modules.

Edit: Sorry if I sound like a big grump, it's just how it reads out when I type on the internet. Added a smiley face for positivity sake. lol I'm not saying you are stupid either for saying TAG should work, I'm saying the idea is wacky. It's also been bounced around a lot and it annoys me that people agree with it.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 15 December 2012 - 03:08 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

kinda, yeah. at least youd have a chance, whereas you have none right now.

[FrostCollar]

MoonUnitBeta, on 15 December 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Reasons why I think TAG working inside ECM is silly:
1. TAG is not a magic laser that "lights up" a target. TAG is data relay to your Mech.
2. It's your Mech that gathers the data coming back from the TAG laser.
3. It's your Mech that transmits the data from your TAG out to your teammates
4. ECM scrambles your commucation to your team mates. You cannot see their location, and you disappear on their minimap.
5. Why would suddenly using TAG clear you from the scrambled communications from ECM? It shouldn't. That's silly.

Sorry to bring in some "realism" into MWO, but magic red beams that weigh a tonne shouldn't be given so much power. If you complain about ECM being OP for 2tonnes, then a 1 tonne laser pointer is OP for negating ECM.
ECM should counter ECM, or like PGI has said, other things will come into play to go against ECM, in the form of other weapons or modules.

That's not a reason that supports how ECM can crawl into your mech and start disconnecting wires to deny the information to the mech with the TAG itself. If nothing else, I'd like to see dumbfiring SSRMs as it seems ridiculous that they are trapped within their tubes as long as an enemy ECM unit is within 180m.

In the tabletop, TAG is a laser beam that puts a spot on a target that some specific types of missiles head towards (as far as I understand from not playing the TT). However, it doesn't seem like it actually did anything for normal LRMs or SRMs. So really in this game TAG is a bit magic as the mechanism through which it functions is entirely unclear.

The trouble with ECM countering ECM being the only truly effective ECM counter is that it gives no reason not to take ECM. Why take a Jenner when you could take a Raven 3L?

When you use TAG on a target within an ECM bubble they are still protected by the increased lock-on time. I don't think it would be the end of the world if a mech that can keep TAG on a moving target for that long could benefit from it.

ECM not stacking could work. It would allow a team to have some units with ECM without having the obligation to go 8/8. Currently in any short-range battle with streaks the side with more ECMs will win most of the time, so there's every reason to pack in more ECMs into your eight man group. I want EWAR specialists, not EWAR teams.

Edited by FrostCollar, 15 December 2012 - 03:17 PM.

[Ricama]

So you think all you need to balance the laundrylist of abilities ECM gives you for so little space and weight is make it easier to counter itself?

[MoonUnitBeta]

Ricama, on 15 December 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

So you think all you need to balance the laundrylist of abilities ECM gives you for so little space and weight is make it easier to counter itself?

No, and I was thinking that I should correct my title so it didn't seem like it is the end-all be-all fix for ECM, because it isn't.
But like people have said that it certainly will help.

In my OP I also gave mention to other things coming into the game and that the Dev's are looking at including modules to help fight against ECM (and probably give a bonus if ECM isn't present?). Figured it would give a hint that I didn't believe not stacking would be THE fix for ECM. But I guess I'll reword it a little for the sake of clarity.

[Ricama]

Honestly, ECM should not be any kind of counter for ECM, a zero damage weapon should not be the intended counter for ECM, ECM should not need a counter, it should do something useful, not half a dozen useful things that combine to be devastating. The idea of a system countering itself is really poor design in general.

[MoonUnitBeta]

FrostCollar, on 15 December 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

That's not a reason that supports how ECM can crawl into your mech and start disconnecting wires to deny the information to the mech with the TAG itself. If nothing else, I'd like to see dumbfiring SSRMs as it seems ridiculous that they are trapped within their tubes as long as an enemy ECM unit is within 180m.

Actually, on the note of SSRMS, I would like to see that in-game. Maybe turning them into just SRM2's with same spread, or less, i don't know how the missiles are designed so they could have different flight pattern. But it would be nice to dumbfire them just to get them out of your mech lol.

Quote

In the tabletop, TAG is a laser beam that puts a spot on a target that some specific types of missiles head towards (as far as I understand from not playing the TT). However, it doesn't seem like it actually did anything for normal LRMs or SRMs. So really in this game TAG is a bit magic as the mechanism through which it functions is entirely unclear.

hah yeah, I know it is a laser beam, and you are right. The current LRM's and SSRM's go by a lock-on, and to my understanding you need that lock-on from information coming from your spotters (if the target is not LOS). So I'm just assuming that right now you need that information sent to you from your spotters inorder to make the lock, since ECM scrambles that, you're obviously not going to be able to get a lock-on, no matter how many laser pointers he shines on someone.

Quote

ECM not stacking could work. It would allow a team to have some units with ECM without having the obligation to go 8/8. Currently in any short-range battle with streaks the side with more ECMs will win most of the time, so there's every reason to pack in more ECMs into your eight man group. I want EWAR specialists, not EWAR teams.

Yes! This is good. I want that too lol. Kind of unhappy about not all Raven varients able to equip ECM since it seems like the go-to mech for all the electronic warefare stuff... oh well. I'd like there to be less ECM though, so I hope the non-stackable option would put less of an importance on ECM. Kind of following the mentality of, "well if he's got it, then I won't need it since it's not going to help" and then that just specializes that team member, and everyone else is filling and specializing in another role.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 15 December 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Codejack, on 15 December 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

The TAG range increase is pretty much useless; it needs to work inside the bubble.

ECM not stacking would be a good start, but there still need to be more disadvantages than 1.5 tons and 2 slots. Running 10 heat, for example....

I also think that NARC should work against ECM (at least letting you get lock), should get more ammo/ton and last longer.

Failing that, just remove it entirely. I like the idea of ECM, but 2 weeks of playing with this crap has cured me of wanting to see it ever again.

someone's desperate to get his streak cat back... anyways i think ecm has pretty much got everything it needs but it needs to limit the mechs that can use it ie: team shielding. that was a terrible idea and everyone rides on the back of the ecmers which means those mechs kinda got the same benifit as having ecm themselves. that's the most broken part, that's what screwed up the majority of tactics and if ecm gets a nerf it should be to give it's abilities to the mech carrirer and no one else. that would be fine.... except everyone will want to pilot raven's cicadas commandos and... oh wait that's already happening :/

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 15 December 2012 - 03:52 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Ricama, on 15 December 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Honestly, ECM should not be any kind of counter for ECM, a zero damage weapon should not be the intended counter for ECM, ECM should not need a counter, it should do something useful, not half a dozen useful things that combine to be devastating. The idea of a system countering itself is really poor design in general.

I see what you mean. On one side you have "Here's ECM it does alll THIS!"So people take it.
And then on the other side you have "Look at that powerful ECM over there, get rid of it by using... ECM!" So people need to take it.

And eventually you end up with who's-got-the-most-ECM's war. Which is exactly what we have now. So my thinking is that reduce the amount of ECM a team needs by limiting the requirement to the bare minimum; which is 1 or two. If you have 8, then they're not going to become OP, it's just that they don't gain anything from it, except for individual security.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 15 December 2012 - 03:55 PM.

[Ricama]

MoonUnitBeta, on 15 December 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

I see what you mean. On one side you have "Here's ECM it does alll THIS!"So people take it.
And then on the other side you have "Look at that powerful ECM over there, get rid of it by using... ECM!" So people need to take it.

And eventually you end up with who's-got-the-most-ECM's war. Which is exactly what we have now. So my thinking is that reduce the amount of ECM a team needs by limiting the requirement to the bare minimum; which is 1 or two. If you have 8, then they're not going to become OP, it's just that they don't gain anything from it, except for individual security.

While your idea might lower the numbers in 8-man, there's still the question of bringing 'backups' and really doesn't change anything for pugs. Honestly there isn't a compelling reason to take a non ECM variant of any of the capable mechs except the Cicada and there's no compelling reason to decline ECM when you can mount it, even if you only need one to counter a stack except possibly the Commando.

[Codejack]

MoonUnitBeta, on 15 December 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Sorry to bring in some "realism" into MWO, but magic red beams that weigh a tonne shouldn't be given so much power.

But MAGIC ECM WEIGHING 1.5 TONS SHOULD BE THE ENDER OF @#$%ING WORLDS?! WHAT GAME ARE YOU PLAYING?

I am a physicist; do you want to add some "realism" and tell me what kind of electromagnetic "bubble" interferes with laser beams? Can you see a magnetic field? No? That's because it doesn't affect light!

What about preventing SSRMs from firing AT ALL? What, is there some special subroutine where it hacks into enemy mechs' computers and disables the trigger mechanism FOR JUST THAT WEAPON?

As for how TAG works, I always assumed that it works the same way that all (real) target designation systems do; by reflecting coherent light off of the target which the optical sensors in the missiles can track. Does ECM cover the mech in non-reflective film once it sees that you are within 180m? Or is another case of hacking into the enemy mechs and selectively disabling them, because completely overriding their systems wouldn't be any fun?

Is there any ridiculously out of proportion element to this game that you cannot somehow rationalize away? If the devs add monkey cannons where you shoot cages full of Chimpanzees at the enemy, and they parachute out and start stuffing bananas in your weapon muzzles and smearing feces over your window, will you be in here explaining how that is a perfectly reasonable combat system that you would consider in any kind of paramilitary action you may or may not have been involved in when you were younger?

[zverofaust]

It would be better if ECM actually required some tiny molecule of skill to actually use rather than being an auto-bubble of win as soon as its loaded. Make it require some sort of action on the part of the user, like specifically targeting it at things (or operating it in certain ways).

[SpiralRazor]

Ricama, on 15 December 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

So you think all you need to balance the laundrylist of abilities ECM gives you for so little space and weight is make it easier to counter itself?

No, but man, its a real start......it wouldnt be mounted in huge spades if it didnt stack, at least thats my gut feeling.