223 replies to this topic

[Mercules]

FerretGR, on 17 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

How does that work? You only get those assist $$ if your team wins. If you sit back scraping a few paint chips for the assist $$, your team is a heck of a lot less likely to win, IMHO, and you won't get many of those $$. You'd get more if you fought for them. Which is what this change intends to rectify.

At any rate, that is not what a Rambo does. We're talking about different things. A Rambo suicide rushes. This will put an end to that.

Directly the opposite. This will put an end to logging in and walking in a circle. People were overheating their trial mechs so they could launch again immediately. No repair cost so they would simply fire until they blew up and take the minimal rewards from joining the match. Now they will do the same only they will be assisted in their suicide by the opposing team. Win/Loss/Draw? all the same so what do they care. If the shoot all the enemy and even one of them dies that is money they make while they are in another match rushing in to suicide again.

[Dhrakyn]

IceSerpent, on 17 December 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Soldiers are not expected to choose what gear they want to use either - they fight with whatever weapons/vehicles they are given. Just saying...

Oh I agree completely! From what I recall an individual could choose to use a personal mech and pay the repair/rearm costs, or use a house provided mech. I think this would go a long way to making sure the right variants were available (and only available) to the right houses.

-W

[FerretGR]

Mercules, on 17 December 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

Directly the opposite. This will put an end to logging in and walking in a circle.

Yes, indeed. That's the goal here.


I'm not sure you understand that. Go back and look at the numbers in the post.
1. the guy who walks in a circle: does no damage, gets no reward.
2. the guy who overheats and dies: does no damage, gets no reward.

Under the current system, both players would be rewarded handsomely for their lack of play. This new system penalizes that behavior; players will not lose money (most never did), but they will only make money if they're effective in combat. The net effect of this is that AFK/suicides don't make you money, so there's no motivation to AFK/suicide. Putting an end to the behavior.

Could you tell me where I'm going wrong?

Pugastrius, on 17 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

This probably belongs in a different topic, but anyhow.
He's simply getting at the fact that if you "focus fire" a guy down from full yourself, you actually earn less (win or lose) than the guy that scratched the paint on all of the mechs.

Reexamine the damage numbers, and see if you still think that. Especially considering that you get assists only in a win, and you get the damage bonus regardless of whether you win or lose.

Ecres, on 17 December 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

While you make some good points, the idea of an assault making more money because because his build is more expensive seems like it will just push everyone to run super expensive Atlas builds so they can make money because that seems to be all that people care about it more money more money.

I do think this is the one point of contention. Why would I run what was formerly considered a "cheap" mech (ie. tech level 1) if I can, after the initial c-bill cost, run what was formerly considered an "expensive" mech (ie. tech level 2), given the choice? I wonder if this is what will happen. Data will hneed to be collected I guess. My response to this when it was first discussed is that after battle rewards be attenuated based on BV: a low BV gives you 1.0 x rewards, a mid-range BV gives 0.9 x rewards, a high BV 0.8 x rewards. "Expensive" mechs still don't make you the money that "cheap" mechs do, but play is still encouraged.

Edited by FerretGR, 17 December 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[Mercules]

FerretGR, on 17 December 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Reexamine the damage numbers, and see if you still think that. Especially considering that you get assists only in a win, and you get the damage bonus regardless of whether you win or lose.

Um.. you get the assist win/lose.

[Pando]

Penance, on 17 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

WRONG. It looks like everything is performance based. So if you rambo



and die fast, your rewards / earnings are slim compared to those who last to the end of the match.

I'm excited, although the game is loosing some of the sim / TT aspects, it's being made more accessable to the masses.

EXACTLY. If some player "Rambo's" in, dies quickly he/she's going to be at the bottom of the pay-scale. I like that. I don't like CARRYING my team with more damage than slots 2-8 combined, having 6 kills and 2 assists feeling like if i wasn't there that team would have been DESTROYED.

note, that feeling is when i'm "pugging" and not participating in a pre-made group of 4.

[SpiralRazor]

I can imagine that suicide farming wont be worthwhile anymore, even for those that run in and go down in a, questionable, blaze of glory.

If you run in and die you may score mm..40k, maybe 50k...farming at that rate is kinda senseless.


Suicide farmers will get 25k....good luck with that.

[FerretGR]

Do you? I don't lose enough to know.

I kid. I guess I haven't paid much attention. But it doesn't change the fact that damage done is going to be a factor, and with some tweaking, can be a much more important factor than assists.

[Pale Jackal]

Repair and re-arm is not necessary. It worked fine during closed beta without it.

[ManDaisy]

Cept everyone had a bazillion C-bills with nothing to spend it on.

[Mercules]

FerretGR, on 17 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Do you? I don't lose enough to know.

I kid. I guess I haven't paid much attention. But it doesn't change the fact that damage done is going to be a factor, and with some tweaking, can be a much more important factor than assists.

But then you are rewarding people for being poor shots. "I did 1,500 damage and got a component to blow up once." shouldn't be a good claim, it should be a reason to practice your aim. You also relegate mechs that perform a group task to "second place" status. I can run my ECM Commando, only ever shoot one other mech(usually an opposing ECM mech) and make a major contribution to the success of my team. Guess what my reward will be if it is based off "damage"?

This is a move in the right direction but it won't eliminate Suicide Grinds. Those suicide grinds will simply switch over to assisted suicide. I am fairly certain you could make more money getting 25-50k every 2 minutes than 100k every 10. That will be incentive enough for people to join, run off shooting every enemy they find, dying, and logging out to get into the next match. Now they can do it with Jenners instead of the Trial mechs... and they earn XP!

ManDaisy, on 17 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Cept everyone had a bazillion C-bills with nothing to spend it on.

...and we had posts like, "Is their any reason NOT to have an XL Engine?"

[LoneUnknown]

Removing R&R is just another bad decision in a series of kneejerk overcompensations that this inexperienced dev team makes.

Remember when they said they didn't want this game to be an "arms race" like every other mechwarrior title?

R&R was one of the key factors to preventing that.

GG for yet another **** up PGI.

[Vassago Rain]

ManDaisy, on 17 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Cept everyone had a bazillion C-bills with nothing to spend it on.

You're acting like many of us don't have 30 million whenever there's a new mech about to be released. Right now, the rich have everything they want and need, but with the new model...the poor can have the things they want, too, and you're rewarded for doing well. So if I have to carry 7 players in my atlas, I get compensated for it, while the lame ravens who circlestrafe for 50 damage get less.

I also won't get slapped in the face with 140,000 in repairs as my 'reward' for dealing out 800 damage, with four kills.

[Phalanx100bc]

FerretGR, on 17 December 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

... except the fear of not making any money because your bonehead decision to not use CASE got you killed when your 12 tons of ammo exploded, or not making money because you didn't take AMS and got LRMed to death before you fired a shot. Dying without doing anything makes you no money. These are techs that increase survivability. The consequences of the boneheaded decision to not use them are reduced survivability. Still sounds like it works to me.




That'd be true if the Rambos could survive for more than 30 seconds. My bets are on the guy killing 3 mechs having done more damage, removed more limbs, etc, in the 15 minutes they're rolling, than the Rambo does in the 10 seconds he survives after cresting the hill.




I'm the biggest TT guy in the world, and I think these changes are SUPER.




I agree, and this is the one issue I saw with this when I first suggested it. The conclusion I came ot back then still holds up today: given the choice between this specific case of immersion and getting rid of AFK/suicide farming, I'll pick the latter EVERY TIME.



Pretty sure this new economy will work exactly as you describe.

Need c-bills? You're ACTUALLY going to have to support your team now, instead of AFKing or DCing or hiding in a corner or whatever it is you did before when your team carried you. It won't happen overnight. It'll take some time to get used to doing something other than farming, and you will learn from your mistakes as there ARE economic consequences for it: you make no money if you have no impact.

I hope you are right...I was under the impression this move was to counter frustration of new players ( which I consider myself one also).

[MaddMaxx]

It seems apparent that so many Players were using the Welfare system, that shutting off can only helps those who weren't. I get a 25% break myself and am grateful.

As for the Assist vs Kill values, that too is likely based on the raw data of how many Kills MOST players get, versus helping via assists. Myself, some games I get Kills (1-2-3, even 4(rare air)) but I can be pretty confident that I provide more assists over-all and appreciate the extra Cash (2,500 C-bills per), they will provide.

With the change to the game play mode, the Cap and Cap assist has to be removed. Unless they were to provide those Bonuses to all the new Cap points on the Maps come Tuesday. Given we can Cap and De-Cap until the 750 points are accumulated, it would not take long for the Farmers to begin Cap Farming to get those Bonuses.

Another point to note about no R&R is this will allow everyone to use all the TOYS without the fear of current R&R costs. A noted, FF and many other IFFY upgrades can be bought and used without fear.

This should prove to be another game changing Patch. I like it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 17 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

You're acting like many of us don't have 30 million whenever there's a new mech about to be released. Right now, the rich have everything they want and need, but with the new model...the poor can have the things they want, too, and you're rewarded for doing well. So if I have to carry 7 players in my atlas, I get compensated for it, while the lame ravens who circlestrafe for 50 damage get less.

I also won't get slapped in the face with 140,000 in repairs as my 'reward' for dealing out 800 damage, with four kills.

Shouldn't carry that much LRM ammo Sir. I get nearly as many kills and it costs me 1/3 to do it in my mostly energy Atlas.

[Col Forbin]

Not a fan. There are supposed to be consequences for putting the fanciest equipment on your mech. Now upgrades go from being a "tactical decision" to a "power up."

[SpiralRazor]

Mercules, on 17 December 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

But then you are rewarding people for being poor shots. "I did 1,500 damage and got a component to blow up once." shouldn't be a good claim, it should be a reason to practice your aim. You also relegate mechs that perform a group task to "second place" status. I can run my ECM Commando, only ever shoot one other mech(usually an opposing ECM mech) and make a major contribution to the success of my team. Guess what my reward will be if it is based off "damage"?

This is a move in the right direction but it won't eliminate Suicide Grinds. Those suicide grinds will simply switch over to assisted suicide. I am fairly certain you could make more money getting 25-50k every 2 minutes than 100k every 10. That will be incentive enough for people to join, run off shooting every enemy they find, dying, and logging out to get into the next match. Now they can do it with Jenners instead of the Trial mechs... and they earn XP!



...and we had posts like, "Is their any reason NOT to have an XL Engine?"

Lame ECM commandos are lame...Im glad youll be getting less because your "fun" contribution to the game, for me, is zero.

Once netcode and collisions are in, they can jack up the C-bills that lights make.

For now though, im glad they have a break.

[MaddMaxx]

ManDaisy, on 17 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Cept everyone had a bazillion C-bills with nothing to spend it on.

Perhaps, but now one could always try the various Upgrades on their Mechs, whereas before they were often seen as to expensive...

[Mercules]

Vassago Rain, on 17 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

I also won't get slapped in the face with 140,000 in repairs as my 'reward' for dealing out 800 damage, with four kills.

I thought you didn't repair and anyone who says they did was lying?

[Agent of Change]

Vassago Rain, on 17 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

You're acting like many of us don't have 30 million whenever there's a new mech about to be released. Right now, the rich have everything they want and need, but with the new model...the poor can have the things they want, too, and you're rewarded for doing well. So if I have to carry 7 players in my atlas, I get compensated for it, while the lame ravens who circlestrafe for 50 damage get less.

I also won't get slapped in the face with 140,000 in repairs as my 'reward' for dealing out 800 damage, with four kills.

I have 30+ million and maintain it because I play several hours almost every day... that should be a reward not a gimee.

Give the new players a leg up... ******* fantastic, more power to them, get them in their own mech post haste, but to build that bank roll and stable of mechs and customize them all that should be the reward for extended play and effort put in.

In the F2P model everything needs to cost something: Time or money... and money should be a viable option to keep the game afloat which means not just giving everyone most things quickly so there is incentive to spend.