161 replies to this topic

[focuspark]

Asmudius Heng, on 06 February 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

I think the current mechanics seem to help with what Pulse lasers did in BT.

They were heavier, hotter, more damaging, and got a bonus to hit while having their range shortened.

This is all taken into account and the to hit bonus is simulated via the shorter burn time making it more accurate at hitting - or at least hitting what you want to hit in the MWO setting of real time.

However - i do not know if the current range/heat/damage/burn time equation is set correctly to make them worth the weight - but those things can be tweaked.

True, they're pretty good but I don't know that I agree that they feel like +2 more accurate. Honestly, my biggest complaint about pulse lasers is that they're just beam lasers with a different animation. There's nothing about them that makes then feel special, and having an always ready weapon available would change a lot of the dynamics in MWO for the better IMO.

[blazarian]

Why this is a bad idea? Because of the DPS (one hardpoint used for pulse is way more profitable than a normal laser, ever). So what is the point in using normal lasers after the pulse has no cycle time. Way too OP compared to normal after this kind of change. I see no point to make it like that.

But if the DPS is made the same relatively as it is now in pulse laser, then it's just a worse weapon to use because you have to track the target all the time which makes no sense when saying "let's make pulse laser more useful".

The chain fire mode is made for this kind of behaviour (but demands more hardpoints to be able to fire single "ongoing" laserfire. Imho the machine gun just needs buff AND less ammo per ton.

Edited by blazarian, 07 February 2013 - 01:31 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

focuspark, on 06 February 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

True, they're pretty good but I don't know that I agree that they feel like +2 more accurate. Honestly, my biggest complaint about pulse lasers is that they're just beam lasers with a different animation. There's nothing about them that makes then feel special, and having an always ready weapon available would change a lot of the dynamics in MWO for the better IMO.

I like the idea of the proposed laser system but not sure if the current pulse lasers are the ones to go with. Not sure some of the advanced tech in BT but perhaps there is a laser type there that might benefit this? XPulse lasers or something?

Hell i would go with non canon stuff if it was balanced and interesting but some people might wanna stab me in the face in BT nerd rage for mentioning that

[focuspark]

blazarian, on 07 February 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

Why this is a bad idea? Because of the DPS (one hardpoint used for pulse is way more profitable than a normal laser, ever). So what is the point in using normal lasers after the pulse has no cycle time. Way too OP compared to normal after this kind of change. I see no point to make it like that.

But if the DPS is made the same relatively as it is now in pulse laser, then it's just a worse weapon to use because you have to track the target all the time which makes no sense when saying "let's make pulse laser more useful".

The chain fire mode is made for this kind of behaviour (but demands more hardpoints to be able to fire single "ongoing" laserfire. Imho the machine gun just needs buff AND less ammo per ton.

The DPS is high intentionally to balance this proposal with standard lasers. Standard lasers can lay down X (where X is the current damage) in 1 second, the proposed pulse lasers would take two seconds. However, standard lasers then go idle for 3 seconds where as pulse lasers would not. This means if by some miracle you can actually keep sustained laser fire on a target without missing or over heating, then you'll do significantly more damage than you currently can.

Do note that the heat is scaled to build to the current level after 2 seconds, just like the damage, AND would be continually built as the pulse laser was use, just like the damage. I honestly do not think this is OP in anyway. The heat build up alone would a deterrent for abuse - that said, the new heat numbers are lower than when this thread started and I think they'd need to be revised again and again and again... but that's the nature of MMOs.

[Eddrick]

I always imagined Pulse Lasers acting like a Laser Machine Gun. It was mostly the pulses within the beam that gave me that inpression.

Pulse Lasers do need a nitch to set them apart from regular Lasers, besides just stats. Leting them be a Laser version of the Machine Gun can be that nitch and an interesting one at that.

[blinkin]

i have to admit i came into this thread prepared to hate an awful idea. instead i was pleasantly surprised.

i hadn't ever considered it before, but as they are i mostly consider the pulse lasers as being a rank in between their standard counterpart and the next size standard laser.

i never had a problem with them because they were bland and i for the most part didn't notice them. <-this is generally a bad thing.

i think a balanced sustained fire would make them much more interesting. although i would be a little concerned about light saber hunchback 4p.

[blazarian]

Also one thing to hate about "constant fire" is the disturbance it causes. I don't like to be shot by enemies using pulses just to f up my view. MG and flamer are much already.

[buttmonkey]

yes please pgi do something with them.
a medium pulse laser is twice as heavy as a regular gives 1 more point of damage and alot more heat, why on earth am i going to waste so much tonnage on 4 med pulse when i can put 4 regulars and 2 extra heat sinks, its a no brainer

[blinkin]

buttmonkey, on 12 February 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

yes please pgi do something with them.
a medium pulse laser is twice as heavy as a regular gives 1 more point of damage and alot more heat, why on earth am i going to waste so much tonnage on 4 med pulse when i can put 4 regulars and 2 extra heat sinks, its a no brainer

they are useful if you have more tonnage free than crit space, but for the most part you are right.

[sC4r]

i like the idea but i would suggest to go for something thats between whats in now and what you suggest

so i would say pulse laser would allow continuous fire for up to:
small -3s
medium - 4s
large - 5s

because of the heat build up in the weapon they need some time to cooldown to for next beam
recharge time would be equal of 1,5x time of fired time -> you shoot for 2secs, recharge will be 3 secs
player will be able to shoot even if the weapon will be on cooldown but can fire only for the charged time -> LPL i fire for 3 secs i then i leave it 2 secs to charge then i fire again until i overheat the weapon (second pulse in this case will be 5-3+1,3=3,3 -> 1,3 is recharged time that happened during the 2 secs), when you will do so your weapon will need to cooldown completely so 7,5 seconds

[blinkin]

sC4r, on 12 February 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

i like the idea but i would suggest to go for something thats between whats in now and what you suggest

so i would say pulse laser would allow continuous fire for up to:
small -3s
medium - 4s
large - 5s

because of the heat build up in the weapon they need some time to cooldown to for next beam
recharge time would be equal of 1,5x time of fired time -> you shoot for 2secs, recharge will be 3 secs
player will be able to shoot even if the weapon will be on cooldown but can fire only for the charged time -> LPL i fire for 3 secs i then i leave it 2 secs to charge then i fire again until i overheat the weapon (second pulse in this case will be 5-3+1,3=3,3 -> 1,3 is recharged time that happened during the 2 secs), when you will do so your weapon will need to cooldown completely so 7,5 seconds

kind of complimicated, but i think this change could work as well. actually now that i think about this it is very simple. you are treating them very much like jump jets.

[Corvus Antaka]

it would be awesome to actually have the proper pulse lasers, same like mech3.

[sC4r]

blinkin, on 12 February 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

kind of complimicated, but i think this change could work as well. actually now that i think about this it is very simple. you are treating them very much like jump jets.

yes kind of...
you see lights fights could end up hmmm 6 MPL cicada could chain fire down another lights with endless pulses (assuming you can aim well)
so i think limitation like what i suggest would be nice
but as i said i like the OPs idea on the most part

[focuspark]

sC4r, on 12 February 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

yes kind of...
you see lights fights could end up hmmm 6 MPL cicada could chain fire down another lights with endless pulses (assuming you can aim well)
so i think limitation like what i suggest would be nice
but as i said i like the OPs idea on the most part

The fact that they generate so much heat already kind of does this with my base description. If you take my numbers: if you fired a LPL for 4 seconds straight you could do up to 20 damage (probably closer to 15) but would have generated 15 heat. That's a measly 1:1 (4:3 at best) damage to heat ratio, so they're not really overpowered even without the limiter.

[blinkin]

bump

[Coastal0]

Also bump. I like the idea.

[Donas]

focuspark, on 21 January 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

They're supposed to come with a +2 to hit bonus as well (per CBT - wow, I'm citing lore) and the only way to do that in an FPS without some ******** lock on mechanism (see SSRM and LRM) is to offer a constant fire stream with tracers.

Incorrect. Another way to do it is to make them do their damage over a shorter period of time than the standard Laser, thus making it easier to track targets and put all the damage where you want it. Which.... They currently do. Pulse lasers do their max damage in fewer 'ticks' than standard lasers, so they concentrate more damage on one spot, as opposed to sweeping across the full torso of a mech. Also, while not a game mechanic per se, they are easier to use for higher ping players that Standard lasers, so its not just purely tracking skill.

now... I DO like and support the idea of an energy based machine gun. But the fix you are describing here is exactly the opposite of what pulse lasers currently do, and fills exactly the opposite nich. (short duration:higher Dam - Long duration:lower dam)

+1 on Energy based machine gun
-1 on eliminating Pulse lasers as they are to do it.

[Raenen]

General Taskeen, on 17 January 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Pulse lasers like that (The Vulture in the beginning of the vid)

I don't want to see lasers travel with a velocity by any means. They travel at light speed which to observation is about instantaneous. I like the pulse lasers they have now because they focus damage over a shorter period of time. They could keep the name pulse lasers for the current laser type and introduce a new type of laser machine gun called maybe, "chain laser" or something and it could have a continuous fire rate. That or you could introduce a limited velocity to it and make it a plasma weapon like the ppc's but rapid fire. I like the idea of another rapid fire weapon but I like my pulse lasers currently.

Edited by Raenen, 16 February 2013 - 12:10 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

As it happens, Spark's idea is essentially what MWLL did with X-Pulse Lasers.

"X-Pulse Lasers work in much the same way as standard Pulse Lasers with one major difference: they do not require a cool down time and thus can be fired indefinitely, making them effective brawling weapons since their high rate of fire gives them an impressive DPS. In addition, the X-Pulse Lasers have the same effective range as Standard Beam Lasers, giving them a slight edge in range as well. Because of the high rate of fire, X-Pulse Lasers can even be competent anti-Battle Armor weapons.

In general terms an X-Pulse Laser is more powerful than both a Pulse Laser or a Standard Beam Laser of similar type. The main problem with X-Pulse Lasers is that it is very easy to generate dangerous heat levels with sustained firing -- something that is especially tempting during intense fire fights. When heavily used it is best to keep an eye on the unit's heat, and to switch to controlled bursts when nearing red line."

BT-wise, X-Pulse Lasers (described on page 321 of TacOps) were the IS's answer to the Clans' longer-ranged Standard Pulse Lasers and even further-reaching ER Pulse Lasers; they "cycle faster and with greater power" but "the results were weapons that gained reach while maintaining accuracy and damage, but suffered from a dramatic increase in waste heat."

Personally, I find the notion interesting... but I also think that MWO's implementation of (standard) Pulse Lasers are fine as they are currently - which, as it happens (and along with doubling the ranges of the IS versions to match that of the Clan versions), is also how MWLL handled standard Pulse Lasers.
"Unlike X-Pulse Lasers a standard Pulse Laser cannot maintain its fire indefinitely and requires a short cool down time between firings."

[General Taskeen]

Strum Wealh, on 16 February 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Personally, I find the notion interesting... but I also think that MWO's implementation of (standard) Pulse Lasers are fine as they are currently - which, as it happens (and along with doubling the ranges of the IS versions to match that of the Clan versions), is also how MWLL handled standard Pulse Lasers.
"Unlike X-Pulse Lasers a standard Pulse Laser cannot maintain its fire indefinitely and requires a short cool down time between firings."

Correct, mostly. The rate of fire (or cool down) of those regular pulse in MWLL are a lot faster than MWO's even though they function in a somewhat similar fashion between both games (MWO after all has mostly borrowed from MWLL in some aspects). Mainly they wanted to differentiate all the laser types. "Realistically" speaking, if there is such a thing in BT, the way MWLL did X-Pulse lasers are more representative of how all pulse lasers function (the "X" is just an upgrade to increase the range for way more heat).