40 replies to this topic

[Truthstar]

Hail Liao:

For those that haven't read th eupdated announcement, pls review:
http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/


I'm sure all the Units are excited to finally have regular competitive drops which will breath new life in our activity numbers and the game itself. Since there aren't weight/Class restrictions, its up to the Community to come up with a standard in order to ensure the most enjoyable experience when performing Unit vs Unit combat. I'm sure this will change in the future but for now I'd like to have a consensus across the IS Units.

I feel the best option for competitive play would be the True Lance format. Since its an 8 man drop, that would mean 2 mechs in each Class. I understand it isn't ideal for everyone but no one here would enjoy fighting unbalanced teams over and over again....we do this already in the current PUG/Matchmaking system. Please discuss internally so we can come to an agreement once it goes live(Dec4th).

This post will be on each House Forum.

[Anders]

Truthstar, on 01 December 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Hail Liao:

For those that haven't read th eupdated announcement, pls review:
http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/


I'm sure all the Units are excited to finally have regular competitive drops which will breath new life in our activity numbers and the game itself. Since there aren't weight/Class restrictions, its up to the Community to come up with a standard in order to ensure the most enjoyable experience when performing Unit vs Unit combat. I'm sure this will change in the future but for now I'd like to have a consensus across the IS Units.

I feel the best option for competitive play would be the True Lance format. Since its an 8 man drop, that would mean 2 mechs in each Class. I understand it isn't ideal for everyone but no one here would enjoy fighting unbalanced teams over and over again....we do this already in the current PUG/Matchmaking system. Please discuss internally so we can come to an agreement once it goes live(Dec4th).

This post will be on each House Forum.

Mr. Truthstar:

Without at way to enforce what you are advocating, I can only see great difficulties in attempting to get everyone to play by the rules. Furthermore, why don't you let the metagame develop organically then attempt to control it. You're taking away the exploration of the design space by attempting to implement a rigid structure, because, we here at the Word of Lowtax might suggest, but that's the way you played it back in the Pleistocene era.

We here at the Word of Lowtax must respectfully decline. Tournament matches (with rules agreed upon before hand) are far different from random matches.

We here at the Word of Lowtax hope that you understand. We do however look forward to the eventual BV/ELO/TONNAGE system PGI is going to implement in the future, but for now, we here at the Word of Lowtax wish to explore this undiscovered frontier for the time being, who knows, something wonderful may come of it.

We here at The Word of Lowtax thank you for your post. We here at the Word of Lowtax realize that you have limited entertainment electrons and appreciate that you're spending your posts on us. Please continue to choose the Word of Lowtax in your future electron spending! We are grateful for your out of the box, blue-sky thinking, and appreciate you touching base with us here at the Word of Lowtax. We hope to synergize our efforts to achieve quantifiable paradigm redefinitions in a future collaboration soon.

Robotically Yours,
Anders

Public Relations Officer
Director of Man/Bird Relations
Loremaster of Word of Lowtax
Veteran of the First Round of the Run Hot or Die Funzies Tournament
A Draaaaaaagun Slayer, Victor over the "4 time crowned Champion from the day."
OpFor Veteran of Second Round of the Run Hot or Die Funzies Tournament
Survivor of the Great Market Collapse of September 18, 3049
Bro-Bots with Mech Romney, Member of the 53%
Commissioner of Entertainment Electrons
A [REDACTED] Asset
Oft Imitated, Never Duplicated
Crackin' Turtles since 3049
Master of the Trial of Walter
Marik Militia Masher
'Mechstradamus
Campaigning in the Inner Sphere for a better Capella
Survivor of the Festival of Artemis
Podcasting Propaganda Information directly to your Neurohelmet 24/7/365
ilKhan of Clan Moderator-in-Exile
Bropocalypse Now Battalion - "The Fist of Lowtax"

[Lord Ikka]

I agree with Anders- organic development is best for the community.

Edited by Lord Ikka, 01 December 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Truthstar]

Anders, on 01 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Mr. Truthstar:

Without at way to enforce what you are advocating, I can only see great difficulties in attempting to get everyone to play by the rules. Furthermore, why don't you let the metagame develop organically then attempt to control it. You're taking away the exploration of the design space by attempting to implement a rigid structure, because, we here at the Word of Lowtax might suggest, but that's the way you played it back in the Pleistocene era.

We here at the Word of Lowtax must respectfully decline. Tournament matches (with rules agreed upon before hand) are far different from random matches.

We here at the Word of Lowtax hope that you understand. We do however look forward to the eventual BV/ELO/TONNAGE system PGI is going to implement in the future, but for now, we here at the Word of Lowtax wish to explore this undiscovered frontier for the time being, who knows, something wonderful may come of it.

We here at The Word of Lowtax thank you for your post. We here at the Word of Lowtax realize that you have limited entertainment electrons and appreciate that you're spending your posts on us. Please continue to choose the Word of Lowtax in your future electron spending! We are grateful for your out of the box, blue-sky thinking, and appreciate you touching base with us here at the Word of Lowtax. We hope to synergize our efforts to achieve quantifiable paradigm redefinitions in a future collaboration soon.

Robotically Yours,
Anders

Public Relations Officer
Director of Man/Bird Relations
Loremaster of Word of Lowtax
Veteran of the First Round of the Run Hot or Die Funzies Tournament
A Draaaaaaagun Slayer, Victor over the "4 time crowned Champion from the day."
OpFor Veteran of Second Round of the Run Hot or Die Funzies Tournament
Survivor of the Great Market Collapse of September 18, 3049
Bro-Bots with Mech Romney, Member of the 53%
Commissioner of Entertainment Electrons
A [REDACTED] Asset
Oft Imitated, Never Duplicated
Crackin' Turtles since 3049
Master of the Trial of Walter
Marik Militia Masher
'Mechstradamus
Campaigning in the Inner Sphere for a better Capella
Survivor of the Festival of Artemis
Podcasting Propaganda Information directly to your Neurohelmet 24/7/365
ilKhan of Clan Moderator-in-Exile
Bropocalypse Now Battalion - "The Fist of Lowtax"

THe Metagame is far off aways and what I'm proposing is a method to ensure the most competitive, combat oriented experience for those wanting to do Unit vs Unit battle. Going the "organic dev" is more of the same PUG/Drop in whatever/randomness bore.

[Melthir]

The meta game is already here. People are already figuring out how to min/max. People are already powering down rather than put up fights. People disconnect when they find out they are up against a premade. There is probably already spying going on in private forums. Like it or not it is here it will just get more and more complex. The rules you are suggesting are absurd. It involves E-honor and the like and quite frankly is a waste of time as it turns the game into ****** mode. What can i put on this mech to min max the weight. I would much rather see the dynamics of a turtle being broken up by a well coordinated push or cap rush ambushes and the like than a cookie cutter brawl that ends the same way every time.

Trying to set play enforced rules just ends up making it so new players have a hard time and cannot compete because the people who have been making the rules have been around longer. We have great examples with the people who are in the forums right now thinking that because they played battle tech before other people were born that they are special and should be in charge when in fact they are not only horrible at the game but bad leaders to boot. Player enforced rules are just that. Made up rules. They generally provide no benefit to the game and stagnate strategy as they force you to play inside a box and honestly who really plays a video game to be told that they need to follow a bunch of imaginary rules and if they dont the old grump ******** are going to rant on the forums about there honor. **** e honor.

[metro]

Truthstar,

Good luck with that campaign, as you can see, it could end up a futile suggestion or possibly, the devs will hear you.

You never know, they"the devs" do know what they are doing,

Your suggestion however well intentioned, ashame, for some of the player base it will fall on deaf and predetermined ears, without any justifiable consideration that it could actually enhance the game.

Yes the game is new.

Yes let it continue to develope at its own pace.

Yes past genres, operated on gentlemens agreements and honorable faction leadership backed those agreements.

This genre, a new creature , complex and varying degrees of players,attitudes, outlooks, wants and wishes.

Don't give up just yet, the game is very well still in its infancy stage, as those who are well versed in this genre will be able to comprehend and attest to its complexity.

Battletech as we know is not your average digital entity, nor is its fan and player base, like any other fan base......this MWO, will be a work in progress for the Foreseeable future.

Everyone, Keep the faith, remain positive, continue voicing those concerns, opinions, and suggestions and you may just get a final product you will enjoy playing for quite a while.

HouseLiao, salutes you.

Edited by metro, 02 December 2012 - 01:50 PM.

[Truthstar]

metro, on 02 December 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Truthstar,

Good luck with that campaign, as you can see, it could end up a futile suggestion or possibly, the devs will hear you.

You never know, they"the devs" do know what they are doing,

Your suggestion however well intentioned, ashame, for some of the player base it will fall on deaf and predetermined ears, without any justifiable consideration that it could actually enhance the game.

Yes the game is new.

Yes let it continue to develope at its own pace.

Yes past genres, operated on gentlemens agreements and honorable faction leadership backed those agreements.

This genre, a new creature , complex and varying degrees of players,attitudes, outlooks, wants and wishes.

Don't give up just yet, the game is very well still in its infancy stage, as those who are well versed in this genre will be able to comprehend and attest to its complexity.

Battletech as we know is not your average digital entity, nor is its fan and player base, like any other fan base......this MWO, will be a work in progress for the Foreseeable future.

Everyone, Keep the faith, remain positive, continue voicing those concerns, opinions, and suggestions and you may just get a final product you will enjoy playing for quite a while.

HouseLiao, salutes you.

Well there are more nonGoons here so I'm not really concerned with ridiculous Anders narrative hot air speech. Liao Units can discuss internally wether they enjoy drops as they currently are in terms of chasing CBills for no real purpose or something a bit more.

[Lord Ikka]

TruthStar, I don't believe that's what they said. Standardized drops for competitive play are one thing, but trying to get everyone to have the same drop loadout just won't happen all the time. While in canon a Lance is generally 1 Light, 2 Mediums, and 1 Heavy/Assault, it won't happen in-game due to the prevalence of Heavy/Assault Class Mechs.

Trying to get every group that fields 8-man teams when fighting randomly to agree to just field standard lance classes won't happen. Sometimes its fun to run all Light/Assault, or work on your Medium/Heavy fire-team tactics. Always dropping with the same loadout of Classes will be boring to some. And its a challenge when your team doesn't have a couple of extra Heavy Mechs and you have to win anyway.

Unit versus Unit is different than just dropping with an 8-man. Unit versus Unit implies that you know who you are fighting and you are attempting to fight that particular unit. In that case, its up to the leaders of that unit to figure the drops between themselves. I respect DRAAGUN and love the TS you have set up for Unit battles- it is there that the unit leaders should decide what loadout to drop with. I have a feeling that Standard 2-2-2-2 or even 2-4-1-1 will show up a lot, just because of the equality of the loadout.

Edited by Lord Ikka, 02 December 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[Rushin Roulette]

We have played balanced groups and unbalanced groups. Once you have 8 player premade teams vs eachother, it will quickly crystalize out which is the better team. The advantage of the new matchmaking is that you dont know what the opponent has any more and it comes down to which team has the better strategy and player/team skills. Part of the startegy is setting up your team so that you can fulfill every role needed with the best possible players in their chosen role.

A team with 8 Assaults fro example will haev gigantic fire power... but low mobility and no scouting possibilty. Let them go up against a team of 8 Lights and they will quickly loose through capping or kneekapping.

However, if they had taken out 4 Assaults, 2 Mediums and 2 Lights, then they would have a much better chance at winning against the Light only team while still maintaining overall very good firepower. The class balance in MWO is actually extremely well done (and once knockdowns are re-implemented, then the lights will be viable targets again). For every rock, there is at least one paper and one scissor.

Just let the community choose their teams and configurations for open play. Badly set up teams sill quickly adapt and learn to make better configurations.

League and competitive play should and will be organized into either a weight limit or rigid team configuations such as your proposed 2222 setup. Some leagues will even limit their teams to weight class and only trial matches so that everyone has exactly the same team setup. This is however something for much later and for competitive play only though .

[Truthstar]

Rushin Roulette, on 03 December 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

We have played balanced groups and unbalanced groups. Once you have 8 player premade teams vs eachother, it will quickly crystalize out which is the better team. The advantage of the new matchmaking is that you dont know what the opponent has any more and it comes down to which team has the better strategy and player/team skills. Part of the startegy is setting up your team so that you can fulfill every role needed with the best possible players in their chosen role.

A team with 8 Assaults fro example will haev gigantic fire power... but low mobility and no scouting possibilty. Let them go up against a team of 8 Lights and they will quickly loose through capping or kneekapping.

However, if they had taken out 4 Assaults, 2 Mediums and 2 Lights, then they would have a much better chance at winning against the Light only team while still maintaining overall very good firepower. The class balance in MWO is actually extremely well done (and once knockdowns are re-implemented, then the lights will be viable targets again). For every rock, there is at least one paper and one scissor.

Just let the community choose their teams and configurations for open play. Badly set up teams sill quickly adapt and learn to make better configurations.

League and competitive play should and will be organized into either a weight limit or rigid team configuations such as your proposed 2222 setup. Some leagues will even limit their teams to weight class and only trial matches so that everyone has exactly the same team setup. This is however something for much later and for competitive play only though .

Unit vs Unit = Premade vs Premade. Competitive play starts tomorrow so we'll see how things play out in the coming weeks.

[Kilgore]

There is no accounting for personal taste. Truthstar was looking to shake hands and have a good fight but it doesn't appear to be very desirable by anyone here to attempt to adopt universal standards before the fights start.

[Lord Ikka]

Its up to the unit leaders who are prepping to drop with each other to set up their own lance setups. Putting out an arbitrary suggested limit isn't a good way to go about stopping Steiner Scouts or all Jenner lances, its just a good way to get trolled. The unit leaders will figure out the most fun competitive lance loadouts, and those will generally come to be played more- that's how organic community growth occurs.

[Melthir]

Kilgore, on 03 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

There is no accounting for personal taste. Truthstar was looking to shake hands and have a good fight but it doesn't appear to be very desirable by anyone here to attempt to adopt universal standards before the fights start.

Its not that it is undesirable, its just not realistic. The second that that type of agreement comes out all the people who chose not to abide by it are now undesirables for not playing by a small group of peoples rules. As history dictates rules are generally made to benefit the rule maker. Needless rules also stifle innovation. A strategy based first person shooter needs innovation or it will quickly become stagnate and no fun. If it becomes no fun the people leave the game and the game gets shut down because it is no longer making money. It is true that the final meta game is not here yet but let people figure out what type of lance composition works for them without putting needles "rules" into place. Do you understand where we are coming from?

[Kilgore]

Melthir, on 03 December 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Its not that it is undesirable, its just not realistic. The second that that type of agreement comes out all the people who chose not to abide by it are now undesirables for not playing by a small group of peoples rules. As history dictates rules are generally made to benefit the rule maker. Needless rules also stifle innovation. A strategy based first person shooter needs innovation or it will quickly become stagnate and no fun. If it becomes no fun the people leave the game and the game gets shut down because it is no longer making money. It is true that the final meta game is not here yet but let people figure out what type of lance composition works for them without putting needles "rules" into place. Do you understand where we are coming from?

Stifle innovation? We've been playing with 8 man groups for months. This is a weak argument at best taking reality into account.

Was it fluff, or were you really implying that Truthstar stood to benefit more than anyone else by telling all the world what he intends to run? Either groups try to exploit this information or they are ignorant or oblivious to it. All roads lead to no advantage.

You call it unrealistic when the idea is simply a grass-roots idea that has criticized as if there was an implied intention to police it. If people don't fancy the idea, they don't do it. I didn't see where the author asked for social pressure to be applied to those that don't conform.

Lastly, as to whether this is needless or not, that's left to be seen. At least someone tried to anticipate a potential shortcoming.

[Lord Ikka]

Problem is, TruthStar is trying to format competitive drops- which are already going to be formatted by the units who are trying to play each other. Its not a useful suggestion, unless he is trying to get ALL 8-man drops to conform. That's the issue. When two units try to drop with each other, they will decide on the loadouts at that time. I happen to think that the "true" lance loadout will probably become the standard anyway, but there is no real point to trying to get units to pledge to it when the two combatants will decide among themselves.

[Lord Ikka]

Read my posts again Starkiller. I am not saying that during competitive play standard lance drops are bad, or that they are bad in general. What I said is that when two units are playing against each other it would be between those leaders to decide. Hell, if Brewer wanted us to do all Lights I would, that's what unit discipline is for. In fact, the 9th generally tries to run "True" lances whenever we can, its a good tactical loadout that encourages flexibility and maneuver.

My points is that Truthstar seems overly concerned that random 8-man drops won't be in standard lance format. Of course they won't- half of the random teams will be composed of Comstar pugs that aren't playing competitively, they are playing for fun. That's the difference between competitive league or tourney play, which are the games/playerbase I believe Truthstar is trying to reach, and random 8-man drops. Competitive units that play against each other will eventually come to drop in some standard loadouts, that's how they become standard loadouts. That was my point. The conversation isn't really useful for stopping bad loadouts, as the units/players that run them either aren't reading the forums, or they don't care about the spirit of the game.

Edited by Lord Ikka, 03 December 2012 - 09:22 PM.

[Melthir]

Starkiller, on 03 December 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

[REDACTED POST]

Hang on it appears you have been drinking more than I have. Apparently you stomped a group of goons in a video game and this makes you happy. That is good. I'm glad you are happy. But it appears you think that all of the 170,000+ goons talk to each other regularly. It also appears you have a hard time reading. We have discovered this an ever growing problem as population increases and there are less people who want to become teachers. What else seems to be your problem.

Also for those of us who do not speak the grognad language will you please elaborate on what W!O is.

I am glad at least that you appear to be able to use a keyboard and thank you for making a valuable contribution to this post.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 09 December 2012 - 12:07 PM.
edited quote

[Lord Ikka]

I think the attacks on and by the goons in this thread should cease, its not useful to the conversation. Best solution- post the great and useful DRAAGUN team vs team TS info- and talk to your opponent beforehand. Easiest way to get the true lance used is to use it against other organized teams who will then use it when they random drop.

[Starkiller]

Melthir, on 03 December 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Hang on it appears you have been drinking more than I have. Apparently you stomped a group of goons in a video game and this makes you happy. That is good. I'm glad you are happy. But it appears you think that all of the 170,000+ goons talk to each other regularly. It also appears you have a hard time reading. We have discovered this an ever growing problem as population increases and there are less people who want to become teachers. What else seems to be your problem.

Also for those of us who do not speak the grognad language will you please elaborate on what W!O is.

I am glad at least that you appear to be able to use a keyboard and thank you for making a valuable contribution to this post.

[REDACTED CONTENT]

Surely Ikka you realize Truthstar IS talking about doing things competitively, that is the whole reason for his post. [REDACTED CONTENT]

Edited by Prosperity Park, 09 December 2012 - 12:09 PM.
removed content per CoC

[Melthir]

Starkiller, on 03 December 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

[REDACTED CONTENT]

Surely Ikka you realize Truthstar IS talking about doing things competitively, that is the whole reason for his post. [REDACTED CONTENT]

Once again why are you taking space robots so seriously. All i see is a bunch of attempts to say something but no clear train of thought other than for some reason you are mad at people from somethingawfull.com and feel like lashing out today. Has this made you feel better if so then all of us from somethingawfull.com are glad to help you achieve peace. If not please tell us of your problems so we may continue to try to help you achieve happiness.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 09 December 2012 - 12:09 PM.
edited quote