10 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

I was thinking the other day that while it makes sense that the tag information doesn't get transmitted out to other mechs with in the 180 ecm bubble... but it seems like it should at least work for the targeting mech only within the 180m ecm bubble. After all tag is light.

[Virtusx]

Going to hijack a little sorry. Actually think that ECM should have three modes.

1. Disrupt - stops targets past 200m form locking on (like it does now) except that those under 180 can target you.
2. Counter - Like it does now
3. Jam - Disrupts those under 180m but those over that can target you.

This makes it a risk vs rewards item instead of turn it on and profit like it is now except for the counter mode.
If enemy is close than switch to jam but that means LRM's can target you.
If enemy is far disrupt but if a fast mech gets in close they can lock on and use streaks.

On topic, I agree I think TAG should work both under and over 180 but understand from a kind of jamming lore perspective why it does not.

Edited by Virtusx, 17 December 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[Belorion]

It doesn't jam the mechs systems though only its ability to communicate and detect things. As TAG is a laser, that transmits its information to the mech, it should be pretty jam proof.

[Kyone Akashi]

Previously, I would have defended PGI's implementation on the grounds that Target Acquisition Gear uses the laser for a more accurate means of gauging distance and tracking a target, not by simply "painting" it. It is a means of augmenting a BattleMech's own sensor suite with additional data, which is then disseminated through the lance and transmitted to the missiles fired by each unit. My train of thought was thus that when a TAG-equipped BattleMech is inside a jamming field, it does not pick up any data that can be augmented in the first place, so the entire package of data is worthless without this basis:

"More than a simple infrared laser-based target designation system, the TAG system is tied into the user's on-board targeting and tracking systems and uses its own integral tight-beam laser communications array to link into the receptive guidance system of certain friendly artillery warheads and guided bombs."
- BattleTech Techmanual

However, further reading yielded that ...

"The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers."
- BattleTech Total Warfare

What ECM does in the TT is to cancel out BAP tracking, the Artemis bonus, and Narc beacons. It also disrupts the C3 link, though as of yet this is not of any relevance to MWO. Obviously, the designers have chosen to expand ECM capabilities by quite a bit more (expanding its function upon basic sensor suites and targeting computers), though I have a feeling not many players would have picked it up if it would work only as it does in the TT.

Thinking about it, a "softer" implementation might have possibly been to just scramble the IFF markings on the screen and the minimap, meaning that pilots within jamming range would have to rely on their own eyes to discern between friend and foe, and that their targeting computer would by default cycle through any BattleMech in range and label it as enemy. Could make unique paintjobs more important!

Note that all of this does not make TAG any less valuable, mind you. I have been using it to a good degree of success by lazing ECM-shielded 'Mechs so my team could hit them. The only sad thing is that it requires me to basically "sit back" rather than being able to discharge my own close-range-focused weaponry. That, and I don't get any CB/XP for the lazing like it works with spotting.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 17 December 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[Smeghead87]

Kyone Akashi, on 17 December 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

It also disrupts the C3 link, though as of yet this is not of any relevance to MWO.

I disagree with this point, it seems every mech has been equipped with a C3 for free. Target data does get shared between your friendly mechs. That's part of what makes ECM look more powerful than it is, everyone forgets that they all got automatic information sharing between friendly mechs for no cost, no weight and no criticals.

[arkanis]

Belorion, on 17 December 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

I was thinking the other day that while it makes sense that the tag information doesn't get transmitted out to other mechs with in the 180 ecm bubble... but it seems like it should at least work for the targeting mech only within the 180m ecm bubble. After all tag is light.

I agree, ecm is not powerful enough, TAG should be restricted in this patch

[Zylo]

Belorion, on 17 December 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

I was thinking the other day that while it makes sense that the tag information doesn't get transmitted out to other mechs with in the 180 ecm bubble... but it seems like it should at least work for the targeting mech only within the 180m ecm bubble. After all tag is light.

I think the issue is related to the missile guidance systems being disrupted while within the 180m range of the ECM mech running in disrupt mode. What good is the TAG laser hitting the enemy mech if your missiles aren't working due to the ECM disruption in the area?

[Tilon]

If we're going to talk about ECM 'making sense', then it shouldn't act as a cloaking device for friendly mechs, preventing LRM locks from 800 meters away.

What, is the ECM jamming its own friendly mechs? What, are mechs broadcasting their position until another friendly mech 'jams' them? lol?

Furthermore, how can an ECM broadcast a jamming signal, then cloak its own jamming signal so it can't be detected from 800 meters away?

How can an ECM act as a null signature system? You talk about making no sense, this takes the cake.

Remove the ability of ECM to prevent direct long range missile locks. If a mech is outside the jamming range and aiming LRMs at you, they should be able to lock you. You have an infrared and visual signature.

Until ECM (A tiny 1.5 ton module, mind you!) is balanced to sanity, I am not playing this game anymore.

If they're going to 'balance' this absurdly OP module by adding 'counters', then I propose we add in 1.5 ton laser shields, ballistic magnet shields, and we can 'counter' those too by adding in new NARCs that disable the magic anti-laser and anti-ballistic shields. It's fair, they can be 'countered'!

Or does that sound like no fun? It sounds as boring as it actually is. No 1.5 ton system should completely neuter a whole system in this game. Did AMS with 1 ton of ammo (which also weighs 1.5 tons) completely neuter LRM? Nope!

So why should ECM? Why should it get to be a jammer of enemy mechs and a cloaker of friendly mechs at the same time?

Talk about lack of logic, the implementation of ECM takes the cake. I'll be back when it's fixed. Not a moment sooner.

(PS: I don't drive a streakcat or LRM boat. I just can't stand to see the balance of this game so horridly laid out.)

[Rayneing Blood]

Where to start, the ECM is a terrible implementation due to clueless morons, that dont understand "BALANCE".

I just found out LRMs are totally shut down and that it's horrid balance for something that only weighs 1.5 tons, that a null sig system should have drawbacks, nevermind a ******* AOE NULL SIG WITH NO DRAWBACKS
"NO" 1.5 ton piece of equipment shouldn't completely shut down direct fire from a weapon system. AMS weighed at least that much
and it didnt cmpletely shut down LRM

A 1.5 TON piece of equipment that ruins LRMs completely on top of cloaking give me a break, that ECM isn't supposed to be a long range cloaking device, it's a short range jammer. Dont even start about it being a counter, I mean having to equip items just to be able to use your weapons again isn't a damn counter because it doesn't overpower anything. Hell if you want to counter everything why not add in addition to a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that ruins LRMs with,
A 1.5 ton laser shield, a 1.5 ton magnet ballistic shield, and then someone can add in a laser amplifier painter that 'counters' it. We can have a magic cloaker shield for every weapon type and a 'counter' to counter the counter.

I mean hell the LRM users had it tough enough already after they added in that warning message so you get 10 ******* seconds to hide now they can just march toward you in the open too. "********"

I could go on all day about it long story short is this was a bad idea from get go. Hell the ECM was withheld due to being OP to began with so how the **** is this any better.

I will not be playing anymore until this **** is fixed and just as Tilon said "I don't drive a streakcat or LRM boat. I just can't stand to see the balance of this game so horridly laid out."

Edited by Rayneing Blood, 17 December 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

... No.

[PANZERBUNNY]

It would also make sense that ECM not act like stealth Null Sig, but it does.