32 replies to this topic

[Rackminster]

SuperPuppy, on 18 December 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

I always ask for a plan, because I know whoever gives a straight answer is a vet who knows what he's doing (I'm hardly a vet).

As above, there are only a few scenarios that can play out currently on a map. Once you've seen each a couple times, you'll know the pros and cons of each.

Ex: Frozen City
Scout the tunnel, once declared clear, guard the ridge/ship area. If tunnel isn't clear, fall back and prepare for attack. As enemies crest the ridge/ship, hammer them. If having a standoff, start working to flank around the crashed ship and come at the side. Generally the first group to get fidgety and go over the ridge is the group that dies as they don't go over all at once, but in a trickle.

If enemies come out the tunnel, try and focus fire them as they arrive. This is easier on one side than the other. The group with access to the 'mid cave/tunnel' has an easier time defending it than the one that doesn't and tends to be more often the group that might attack that way instead of using the ship/hill.

The final alternate strategy seems to be to try and sneak your forces out along the valley and out of sight until you're almost inside the enemy base - but that's risky since it leaves you completely open and relies on your enemies preparing for a ridge/ship assault or tunnel attack. It's also possible to spot people doing this if you're using Thermal and just keep glancing that way while waiting.

So when someone says "Cave" they're talking about going with #2. If someone says "Ridge" or "Hill" they mean #1.

SuperPuppy, on 18 December 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

But when no one answers, I always declare what I'm going to do (which I more pugs are now doing)... which is usually follow the assaults.

What gets me is the ECM D-DC Atlas that we all follow, but can't be bothered to wait for stragglers. As he leads the charge, the team strings out until the last half are not in ECM anymore and then the Atlas finds himself basically alone as he plunges head-first into a fray he can't hope to win. Seriously, dude?

When I play my ECM Raven, I try and work to keep everyone in ECM - like a dog herding sheep - and pay attention to what's going on if they split up a little. I've seen people with hellstorms of LRM's coming at them, but I scoot over and break the lock with me ECM and they get back to safety. Toggle Counter/Disrupt as needed and actively attack scouts harassing the team without moving so far from the team that I deprive them of the benefit of my ECM field. It's a fun thing to play with, but a tad frustrating in a PUG.

Edited by Rackminster, 18 December 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

The commander does currently have very limited tools at their disposal.

1. You need a competent commander.
2. You need people that will actually listen to a commander, even if the orders seem completely wrong.

We will solve these with commander XP of some kind. And might go something like this.

If the commander puts down orders and people follow, the commander will get XP.
If the lance mates follow the orders they get XP.
If the order is successful (Attack order and you kill someone, extra bonus etc)
Then we have commander points allotted somehow to know who's a good commander and will have priority to get picked as commander at start of match, like a rank perhaps.

We will also introduce more tools for the commander and better indication in the world what the commander wants.

An important one to me that is missing right now is 'Enemy Spotted'.

Don't ask me when, I'm hounding Paul for a design......priorities.



So eventually voice comms will not be as important but can never be replaced.

[Darwins Dog]

All of this. Good advice all around.

I usually ask for a plan, and then announce what I will do if no one responds.

Another thing to check out are the heatmaps.

In particular look at the movement maps. There are clear paths that people follow, and with good reason. These are the paths that offer the best cover. This is also an idea of where scouts should watch (don't be on those paths, just find a good place to watch them), and where you should defend (to cut off those areas).

The kill and death maps are a little less helpful as they are spread all over the place, but they can give an idea of where the kill boxes are. By that I mean the places on each map where ambushes are likely, and where defenders want you to go. Most of this action is concentrated around spawn areas, but it's worth a look.

[Corvus Antaka]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 18 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

The commander does currently have very limited tools at their disposal.

1. You need a competent commander.
2. You need people that will actually listen to a commander, even if the orders seem completely wrong.

We will solve these with commander XP of some kind. And might go something like this.

If the commander puts down orders and people follow, the commander will get XP.
If the lance mates follow the orders they get XP.
If the order is successful (Attack order and you kill someone, extra bonus etc)
Then we have commander points allotted somehow to know who's a good commander and will have priority to get picked as commander at start of match, like a rank perhaps.

We will also introduce more tools for the commander and better indication in the world what the commander wants.

An important one to me that is missing right now is 'Enemy Spotted'.

Don't ask me when, I'm hounding Paul for a design......priorities.



So eventually voice comms will not be as important but can never be replaced.

Go play Tribes :Ascend. It is the only game I have ever played where pugging is completely possible, and while not every match is amazing, in general and on average every single match has excellent coordination amongst the team simply due to the matchmaker & ranking system and the VGS text to voice command system they implemented. It's great to load up a round, play 15 minutes as a pug and know you have a good chance of winning and are almost guaranteed a good game.

Regarding enemy spotted, in tribes you just hit "q" when your cursor is over the enemy, and the game puts alittle red arrow over the guy and the voice chat auto says "enemy spotted in base/midfield/generator room/etc" so we could have "Enemy spotted in E5, D6, etc. (maybe "light/medium/heavy/assault", or 1/2/3/4 enemies spotted)

I'm excited about your feedback here, and I'm sure we all appreciate your time. Thank you for posting this. Commander XP is a great & exciting idea.

[Rackminster]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 18 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

If the commander puts down orders and people follow, the commander will get XP.
If the lance mates follow the orders they get XP.
If the order is successful (Attack order and you kill someone, extra bonus etc)
Then we have commander points allotted somehow to know who's a good commander and will have priority to get picked as commander at start of match, like a rank perhaps.

My only concern is abusing the system. It might function better as rewards for the top three "order following players" in descending order, or put a cap on what can be earned (though that might dissuade continued order-following once the cap is reached).

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 18 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

An important one to me that is missing right now is 'Enemy Spotted'.

When scouting I tend to just target an enemy and assume they'll pop up as a red blip on the map for my team (as long as I'm not jammed).

My favorite "Player Commander" game was Savage, but the Commander there wasn't a player. They were an overseer, directing the scope of the battle from overhead while issuing orders for players to follow and constructing defenses and researching upgrades.

I'd totally want to try out assuming the role of "Drop Commander" from an orbital relay. My LoS would be whatever my allies had, and I could issue orders in real time without worrying about removing myself from the battle in order to do so. I can close my eyes and watch the battle unfold, directing scouts to flank quickly while ordering assaults to hold their ground or draw fire.

Edited by Rackminster, 18 December 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[Jman5]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 18 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

The commander does currently have very limited tools at their disposal.

1. You need a competent commander.
2. You need people that will actually listen to a commander, even if the orders seem completely wrong.

We will solve these with commander XP of some kind. And might go something like this.

If the commander puts down orders and people follow, the commander will get XP.
If the lance mates follow the orders they get XP.
If the order is successful (Attack order and you kill someone, extra bonus etc)
Then we have commander points allotted somehow to know who's a good commander and will have priority to get picked as commander at start of match, like a rank perhaps.

We will also introduce more tools for the commander and better indication in the world what the commander wants.

An important one to me that is missing right now is 'Enemy Spotted'.

Don't ask me when, I'm hounding Paul for a design......priorities.



So eventually voice comms will not be as important but can never be replaced.

I know this is down the road a bit, but one concern I would have about reward system you described would be spamming little orders to boost experience gain. For example, if I ordered the lance to head to D6, then ordered them to head to D5, then ordered them to head to D6, etc... So you will have people gaming the system to boost exp and potentially their "commander rating".

I think you guys realize this, but most important for me as a pug is creating some sort of audio cue for objectives. Visible indicators outside the map would be appreciated as well. In the short term, you might look to create some special targeting indicator when the commander targets an enemy.

[Ricktor Black]

Yup, sometimes it doesn't take much to get people moving in the right direction. It seems to me that more people are willing to follow basic orders than a lot of people think. People naturally enjoy being part of a group and working together and I think everybody enjoys winning. Anybody who has played in even a 4-man group knows that a bit of coordination makes all the difference in the world. Sometimes all it takes is one person to take charge just a little bit to give some direction.

[malibu43]

I am one of those guilty of immediately asking "plan?". Usually followed by "Anyone on TS?" If there is a group in my team that are already on comms, I figure knowing who they are and following along with them is probably a good start. I've found that a few times they'll respond with what they're doing, and then the whole team is more likely to follow along.

If noone responds, I'll give the generic "stick together and focus fire" and then usually one of the more common, "safe bet" strategies for whatever map we're on. I have found it works pretty well.

Edited by malibu43, 18 December 2012 - 10:53 AM.

[Ghost Inc]

For me as a PUG-Guy, its still very helpful, if people share their destination.
What happens often is, that Premade 4 man groups completely ignore the chat. While that can be solved by simply following the group, another problem remains.

"Hi team"
- nothing comes back

"plan?"
- "kill the enemy"
- "stick together"

--> This is not helpful. I think most PUG Players WANT to stick together, but lose the way in the heat of battle (Idiots excluded ^^).

Also, Focus Fire only works, if people TELL their targets.
I almost never hear something like "Shoot the Hbk 4PS (insert player nickname)"

Edited by IncorporeaL GhosT, 18 December 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Elkarlo]

Scouting in the Commando i feel very often like the good old Panther in the clip of Mech Commander, followed by some bad Ravens trying to get me... more then one time i directly lead them into my Team.


But for the Scouts, when you are in trouble in a PuG Game, go on full speed,
hit the teamchat Key and give your Map coods out and try to make it to your team.

When you putt out a "C5" then you can bet your A s s that you will get help on C5 in a Pug..

Literaly you are doing exactly that..
but around 80% of the occasions i did that i GOT help and i could lead my PuG team
into the combat zone..


You are the Eyes of your Team, you need to survive and you
need to give short precise informations out. You got a Grid and something like "4 Water"
helps the other Players to get a grasb what is going on.


For the other Players: When a Scout is comming dodging like hell and running in zickzacks...
then he might be in BIG trouble and might have unfriendly company..

And for the Scouts... firing a M-Laser over the Heads of your Teams is something like a Signal Flare

Edited by Elkarlo, 18 December 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[Jaynestown]

Rackminster, on 18 December 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

I can't do voice comms due to personal reasons (I have to hear if one of my kids starts crying at night, so I don't even have my audio on).

I want to make absolutely clear that I am not advocating negligence in favor of video games. However, consider something like this:
http://www.deseretne...nts.html?pg=all

What you are doing right now sounds great. I have seen it in action in a couple matches. What I have found helpful, even if you're not taking direct control of the match, is for players to just say what they're doing when they can. If I am watching a tunnel, I have my legs pointed to an exit and I'm ready to type out what enemies I see after I throttle up and move out of the line of fire. That seems more advantageous than taking one or two pot shots and immediately entering a brawl (where it becomes impossible to type). If I am moving back to base, I say that, and say by which route. Also, if I die, I try to type out what killed me, and at what location. Then I switch to spectating a brawler and type out his targets, if possible, while he is busy dodging and juking. Not all the time, but when someone runs out of ammo, is taking a lot of damage, or if I just happen to see on the map that there is a teammate fairly close to him who doesn't seem to know what is happening. None of these are orders, but I just figure the more info the team has, the better.

[CygnusX7]

Any sort of communication from someone who has experience makes a huge difference to a PUG.
I hate it when someone asks: Plan? and you get smart *** responses like.. Don't die.

[FerretGR]

CygnusX7, on 18 December 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Any sort of communication from someone who has experience makes a huge difference to a PUG.
I hate it when someone asks: Plan? and you get smart *** responses like.. Don't die.

Maybe it's just confirmation bias, but I always take people responding in that fashion to be a pretty good sign that we're about to get stomped